Here is the second part of a transcript of an interview government officials conducted with TNA president Dixie Carter on Thursday, December 6, 2007 largely regarding steroid use in her company as well as professional wrestling. Carter also goes into great detail on the behind the scenes aspects of TNA.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q And again, I don’t want to harp on this issue over
again. Do you provide any specific — do you — that kind
of explanation you just provided me, do you provide that
kind of explanation or guidance to your talent scouts?
A Absolutely, absolutely. I mean, I have people who
have been on steroids in the past, some for extended periods
of time, some to the point where they have no testosterone
in their body at all now. They can’t have children now.
They have a variety of medical issues that this has caused.
And not only has my director of talent relations but I’ve
had direct conversations with these people saying this is
not tolerated, it is not expected in this company, we want
you to be around when you’re 70, 80 years old. I know you,
your family, your little kids and you need to make sure that
you’re under proper care and that you’re completely taken
care of.
Q To the extent that — again, you mentioned the look
being a big tip. To the extent that one of your talent
scouts or anyone else with any organization has a suspicion
that a wrestler may be using steroids, do you instruct the
24
talent to inform TNA management as they — to the extent
they provide a recommendation regarding picking up that
particular wrestler?
A Absolutely. It is called — the juice is what they
call it. And they — or the gas, or I think that is the
other name that they typically call that. And — like I
said, they — like this guy is on the gas, this guy is on
the juice. You know, you wouldn’t want him, he is — that
is not who you’d want.
Q So you have had those specific conversations?
A Absolutely.
Q Do your talent scouts provide written
recommendations or —
A No.
Q — suggestions for particular individuals?
A No.
Q It is all by word of mouth?
A It is — I mean, the creative committee will call
and say — you know, either the talent relations man will
come to creative and say these wrestlers are available or
they’ve shown an interest in working here or the creative
group that writes the shows will go to him and say, hey, we
are interested in bringing in so and so. Within the last
6 months, we had a concern that there were two people that
creative wanted to bring in, that we did not have a
25
knowledge of them, we did not have that personal, you know,
working, personal relationship with them and wound up not
bringing in one, brought in the other and we could tell -we
didn’t even need to test. We could tell right away that
he was not — would not fit the mold and would not be able
to pass a test. And he was not invited back after that
time. It was a one-time offer to come in.
Q I see. Okay. That’s actually a little bit to my
next question. To the extent that there may be questions or
rumors about a particular talent you’re considering or your
talent scouts have indicated that they have suspicions, do
you conduct background checks or any other independent
investigations that might provide insight into a particular
wrestler’s drug use?
A What we’re starting to do is if there is any doubt
on a wrestler, even if we feel like we know the situation,
we are going to go — we are in a position now where we’re
able to do it. We’re going to test regardless. We’re not
just going to test anybody that comes in if there is no
suspicion or doubt just to screen.
Q Those are future plans?
A Yes, correct. Actually we already have been doing
that this summer, looking at people that we’d bring in.
Actually there was a couple that we were going bring in that
we said there would be testing and they wound up not coming
26
in.
Q So you started testing, screening this summer?
A No. We planned on it. We started talking about it
and we even — when there were a couple of new talent that
we told if you were going to come in, we’d conduct a test in
advance. Creative — one didn’t write one into it and the
other one ended up going to Mexico instead, which could have
been our answer right there.
Q Okay. Have you ever with regard to WWE talent that
comes into the — that comes into TNA, have you ever do
you ask WWE if they’ve ever tested positive for drug use or
if those wrestlers might have a drug problem?
A No. It is all public knowledge. We don’t talk to
the WWE. But it is public knowledge who is, you know, not
failed who has failed a drug policy — a drug test.
Excuse me. There was one talent in particular that had a
history of it. I don’t know if they were ever, you know,
under — I don’t know if WWE even had a drug policy back
then. And it was a very famous charismatic guy, he had
people, you know — he knew everybody in our organization,
he had been clean for over a year. This was all street
drugs. He came in and was great for a long period of time
and stumbled. And we had to suspend him and then we let him
go. He never came back and worked for us again. Absolute
right thing to do. Painful for when you don’t have any
27
stars and you need one, but we didn’t even question it.
Q Okay. When talent is hired at the time of hiring,
for example, do you provide any education on the risk of
drug use in general and steroid use in particular?
A Not at this we have not. We have just instituted
about a year and a half ago a talent handbook that has some
information in there. We are going to be — you know,
steroids, we do not believe, is a big problem within our
company. But regardless of that, we are trying to start
providing steroid — not just that, but preventive medicine.
We have started doing seminars on financial planning. I’ve
got guys who have made millions of dollars in their lives
who now don’t have a penny to get to the next week. So
there is a variety of when I say baggage that comes with
this, it is far beyond drugs. It is, you know, not knowing
how to manage your money, depression, bodies broken down and
things such as that.
Q Okay. You’ve been pretty open regarding the fact
that you have hired wrestlers with known or suspected drug
abuse problems. Is it —
A In their past, correct.
Q In their past?
A Absolutely.
Q If you’re considering a wrestler with a known or
suspected drug abuse problem, is the hiring process any
28
different for those wrestlers than those with no known
history of drug use?
A Well, the only difference would be that there is a
conversation that happens with them that says there is no
tolerance here and it will not be allowed and we expect you
to keep, you know, the good work that you have done. I
mean, honestly we are a company where we have tried to give
people second chances because it is — you know, it is a
very different type of company. I mean, we were trying to
let wrestlers know — we’ve got a guy currently right now
who was an alcoholic for many years and was sober for 4 or 5
and started drinking within the last two months. He was
sent home immediately and told that his health and the
health of his wrestlers was more important to us than
anything and he’d be paid and his job is secure but he has
to get help before he can come back.
Mr. Cohen. Okay. I’m going to — before I get to the
next set, I’ll send it around and ask if anyone has any
issues they want to raise.
Mr. Buffone. I want to clarify something.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q You said — would any competent scout should be able
to know the wrestling — the wrestler they’re recommending,
they should know whether or not they’re using illicit drugs?
29
Is that your opinion?
A They absolutely should be able to know that.
Q And they should be able to know if they’re addicted
to painkillers?
A They should know that.
Q And they shou}d be able to know if they use
steroids?
A They would probably know that.
Q So most any wrestling scout should be able to -A
Not just him personally. It’s not like you can
expect one guy to have all of that magic information. That
would be absolutely incorrect information. What it is is
you’d go and talk to that person’s best friend, you would
talk to the guy he has traveling with and you talk to other
people who have been in that organization with him. You
probably know family members that you’d consult with. But
he is responsible for finding and culling all of that
information together. But he himself would not know it.
Q But in the normal background check, that would go
into any scout recruiting new talent, they should be able to
find all that information and should know that before they
would come and make the recommendation to TNA?
A Yes.
Q Whether or not that talent has that problem?
A Uh-huh. Correct.
30
Q Thank you.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q And to clarify, it sounds like you rely solely upon
the information obtained by those talent scouts?
A Up until this time prior to hiring, correct. And in
the future, like I said, if there is reasonable doubt, we’ll
do something. But if there is no reasonable doubt, there is
no — we don’t believe there is any reason to test prior to
hiring.
Q Okay.
Mr. Cohen. Do you guys have anything else?
Mr. Chance. You had mentioned in the beginning looking
for talent. Was there any kind of perception that TNA might
become sort of a safe haven for those have been else where,
to come and work
Ms. Carter. I think it is the exact opposite. I think
it is — we run a very tight close-knit ship. We run only a
few shows a month and we keep a very, very tight leash on
people. One little incident and people have been sent home,
suspended or fired. And so I think it is the exact
opposite.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q For the next round of questions, I’m going to
present you with an August 9, 2007 e-mail from Andy Barton
to you. This is we’ll mark this as Exhibit 1. I’ll mark
31
it for you.
[Carter Exhibit No. 1
was marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Take a minute to review it.
A I know it.
Q Who is Andy Barton and what is his responsibility at
TNA?
A Andy is our senior vice president. He is
responsible for licensing and international television
distribution and has been I worked with him for many
years leading up to this, so he is somebody I have most
trust in and he has helped me research a lot on drug policy
and other companies’ drug policies and things such as that.
Q Okay. The e-mail refers to Terry. In reference to
Terry, Mr. Barton writes, is his main job facilitating
creative by getting talent creative wants on the TNA roster
who do not — I’m sorry. Let me start this again. In
reference to Terry, Mr. Barton writes is his main job
facilitating creative by getting talent creative wants on
the TNA roster who do or might have drug problems or is his
first obligation to tell you and Dean that a talent creative
wants has a drug problem and we either shouldn’t bring them
in or test them in a meaningful way prior to his joining of
the roster? Who is Terry and what is his responsibility at
32
TNA?
A Terry Taylor is director of talent relations. And
this was the incident I actually referred to earlier from
this summer when there were two talent that creative said
that they’d like to bring in or needed for a show. And
one — there was a concern about one person because of his
physical look and we did not have anybody — you know, we
just had no history, knowledge, no one had worked with him
and he didn’t know anything about him except the judgment
that he was passing. The other one had a known substance
abuse problems. We wound up not even attempting to bring
him in. The other person is the one that we brought in and
could just tell by looking at him since no one had seen him
in a period of time that he did not fit what we’d want in
that company and he was let go.
Q Okay.
A He wasn’t really let go because he was never hired
but he was not invited back after that show.
Q Okay. And the Dean in that e-mail is
A Dean is Dean Broadhead, and he is our CEO. What
Andy was bringing to my attention was the system that should
be.
Q Okay. Did you reply to Mr. Barton’s e-mail?
A I was on vacation when he sent it. So I probably
called him back. And it wound up being that the one guy
33
didn’t come in and we said we’ll make a determination, you
know, once we can see this guy and we did.
Q Okay. And did you reply to the specific question,
to clarify the nature of Terry’s jqb?
A Absolutely. That’s why he is asking that, is that
should he have just — because talent wants somebody, you
know, should he — if he doesn’t know that background with
them, is he to do it anyway? And Andy was being — Andy is
our — our police dog when it comes to this issue. So he is
being maybe a little — I don’t know if flippant is the
right word. But he was trying to let me know that if
creative wants somebody who has by any chance some kind of
baggage if we don’t have the ability to test them out,
what do we do.
Q Did you follow up on this e-mail in any other way?
A Well, one of the guys, like I said, we never invited
in. And the other guy came for us to see him. And after
that one appearance, he was no longer there.
Q Were you concerned Mr. Barton in that e-mail
makes reference to confusion within — is sounds like to
some confusion within — among individuals who are lower in
the organization about where the organization should stand
with regard to drug use. Were you concerned that this
confusion existed?
A No. The problem lies with the head of talent,
34
creative Jeff Jarrett, not — and Terry Taylor not being -Terry
is not his favorite person. He thinks he is — you
know, he is not a good agent on the show, he is laying out
matches and things like that. So Terry is in essence scared
of Jeff and I think he didn’t know in this situation -since
creative wanted him and he didn’t have the ability to
give him an answer of what he should do.
Q Okay. Do you know if Mr. Barton provided an answer
to Mr. Taylor about his concerns, a specific answer
regarding —
A I believe it is the same thing I communicated to
Andy. And at this point on August 9th, we had testing set
up for steroids and drugs for September 10th. And if they
were going to stay, they would be subjected to the testing
within four weeks. So we knew that that was happening as
well.
Mr. Cohen. Sam or Sarah, do you want to ask anything
about this particular e-mail?
Ms. Safavian. Can I just follow up on what you
mentioned about the testing that was beginning on September
10th?
EXAMINATION
BY MS. SAFAVIAN:
Q Did it happen?
A No, it didn’t. We did it in advance of receiving
35
the letter from the committees and then were advised that we
should just hold off on the testing in case we were given
certain provisions that we’d need to provide. So we were
told just to hold off until we heard back from Congress in
case there were certain things that we needed to do
differently.
Q With regard to your testing?
A With regard to testing, correct.
Q Had you notified the talent that there was going to
be this testing on September 10th?
A Uh-huh.
Q So they were all aware that within a few weeks you
were going to have the testing done?
A We set it up through — we have an orthopedic
surgeon on staff with us at every show and he had set it up
through a hospital in Florida.
Q What did you end up telling the talent when you
cancelled the testing?
A That it was just being postponed.
Q Was a new date ever scheduled?
A Well, we didn’t hear back for me to come in and -until
just within the last week or two, I guess, when this
offer — when I was asked to come in. So we went ahead and
just decided we couldn’t wait. So we were just going to
schedule it within January.
36
Q So it is next month?
A Yeah. We just decided to go ahead and not wait and
if it wasn’t right, then we’d redo it and fix it later.
Q And did you notify the talent about the new testing
date?
A I don’t know if they’ve been told or not yet.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q The reason that particular e-mail caught our eye was
that several witnesses interviewed by our committee have
described TNA as a refuge for WWE’s failed drug users and as
a safe haven for drug users. Are you concerned about this
image?
A I don’t think it is a correct image at all. I
absolutely don’t think it is. We have a lot of people who
have past histories. There was a USA Today article in ’94.
And you know there are several of our guys interviewed for
that that we offered up, come down, come see our show, come
down and talk to these people. And they all had past
histories with drug abuse and prescription medicine abuse.
Q Does image concern you?
A Image concerns me tremendously. I mean, we are -we
work very, very hard to be a different kind of wrestling
company, to treat our wrestlers differently, to provide them
a different lifestyle, to not put them on the road where
they beat and batter their bodies so much that they have no
37
option but to turn to pain medicine. It is a huge problem.
And we treat them with respect, which they’ve never gotten
before. But we also hold them accountable. And it is not a
safe haven. These guys are on a very short leash as far as
it being a family friendly show what they can do in the ring
and the image and perception of how they are. If they get
into any kind of an altercation — let’s just say boys
having fun in a bar fight, it doesn’t matter — it may not
be on our clock and they may work for a lot of other people,
but it will not be tolerated in our company.
Q So have you had instances where you’ve let wrestlers
go because of those kind of indiscretions?
A Absolutely. Absolutely. Suspended, let off shows
which means without pay. That is a form of suspension as
well for a period of time and termination. And we’ve also
had several wrestlers who we have allowed to go to rehab and
have told them that their places were safe afterwards. But
again most of this would be, you know, pain medication and
some of them — yeah, it is mostly pain medication or
alcohol.
Q ,I was going to ask, have there been any specific
cases where you’ve suspended or let wrestlers go because of
issues with regard to steroids or performance enhancing
drugs?
A No.
38
Mr. Cohen. I think that is the end on this set.
Anybody else want to
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q You seem to be saying that you want to create a
place that really says you don’t you want a better kind
of wrestler and a better kind of talent who really respects
the rules and respects the laws and doesn’t get in trouble.
How does hiring Pacman Jones who was suspended by the NFL
fit into that image?
A Well, you know, in this country, I believe you’re
innocent until proven guilty. And the last I checked, you
know, most all of his incidents, several of them have been
cleared during his tenure with us and even some since then.
You know, he was available and we found a good program that
was fun for him. And we. really felt after talking to him at
length, talking to his attorneys, talking to his agent and
everything that we asked all those questions in advance
and were told, you know, this is an issue that should be
cleared up in the next period of time and, you know, if you
want to use him, you can for that reason.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q One of your other big stars, Kurt Angle, has also
been he is certainly suspected — he has been — media
reports have indicated he is a suspected drug user at the
very least.
39
A He has been very vocal about
Q And can you tell us when you decided to hire him,
was you have spoken about your concern about TNA’s image
and you’re concerned about being a family friendly
organization and presenting a family friendly show. What
was your thinking with regard to bringing in Mr. Angle and
how it would affect that image?
A Kurt has been very vocal in the media about his
addiction to pain medicine. And he — he was also very
vocal about his inability to be given time off to rehab.
And against the advice of doctors, he quit cold turkey.
Prior to a match, I believe, or I believe prior to right
after a big important match he had been off drugs for a
period of time, very, very unhappy with his situation. And
I hate speaking for somebody, but —
Q I asked.
A You did ask me. But he is the one to probably ask
even more so. But he had been cleared for a long period of
time. He — we met with his attorney and his agents. He
was under the care of a three legitimate doctors in the
Pittsburgh area, all of which are highly reputable. One for
preventative medicine, one for his broken neck and the other
just general — his general medicine and welfare I guess it
is. And, you know, we felt like he had, you know — he was
in a completely different place.
40
Q Okay.
A And he has been very vocal since about the kind of
life he led there. But he is a different kind of person. I
mean, he takes responsibility. Just because he worked 300
days a year, he doesn’t blame the company, which I don’t
believe he should because he chose to take the paycheck, you
know. And but he has been very vocal about getting
hooked on the medicine, his inability to rehab until he
finally had to do what he —
Q Okay. Our next set is on TNA’s testing and drug
policies.
A Okay.
Q Your drug policy is laid out in your talent policies
and procedures handbook. We’ll mark this Exhibit 2.
[Carter Exhibit No. 2
was marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q I’m providing you with a copy. When was this policy
developed?
A WWE came out with a general wellness policy maybe
March 1st, maybe the last day in February of 2006 if my
memory is right. And Andy forwarded it to me within a day.
And we reviewed it and we decided that even though we were
just running the three shows a day and these guys didn’t
work for us full-time, actually worked for everybody else
41
for a majority of the time, we needed to, you know, put
together a formal document for them that laid out the dos
and don’ts of what they had been told in bits and pieces.
So we created this talent handbook of which a drug policy is
included in that.
Q The next exhibit — I’m going to present you with a
March 12, 2006 e-mail from Kevin Day to you.
A Uh-huh.
[Carter Exhibit No. 3
was marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q This e-mail is from Kevin Day to you, Andy Barton -A
Jeff Jarrett.
Q Jeff Jarrett and Steve Campbell, responding to the
February 28th e-mail from Andy Barton. This we will mark as
exhibit 3?
A So then they came out with that policy on February
27th. I was close.
Q In discussing the WW wellness policy, Mr. Day states
I can like the substance of it, provided we apply our own
discipline levels to it, it seems like a good policy to it.
It seems like a good policy. Are you familiar with the WW
policy that Mr. Day liked?
A Correct.
Q The first draft of the policy presented to the
committee — presented to our committee — among the
documents presented to our committee, the first draft of the
policy was created on March 3rd, three days after
Mr. Barton’s original e-mail. When you initially drafted
your wellness — your talent policy, did you use that WW
wellness policy as a guide?
A I think they looked at several different
organizations’ drug testing policies and made the
determination — I think, there was conversations back and
forth about. You know, with us only working with these guys
3 days a month, what we can and cannot request of them. And
it was determined that we wanted to create a full policy but
we did not list out all the specific drugs. It was more
just prescription drugs. We did not list every prescription
drug made and things such as that. But it does, I think -you
know, it covers the basics of it.
Q Okay. With regard to your final policy — and I
apologize if I’m jumping around a little bit.
A That’s okay.
Q I’ll probably — one key difference between the
final policy and WWE’s current policies, is that WWE’s
policies include provisions for support — for drug testing
for steroids while TNA’s appear not to. Why is this the
case? Why did you finally not to decide to include testing
for steroids?
43
A Well, it is a prescription drug. I mean, that would
be considered to mean a legal prescription drug.
Q So your understanding is that your current policy
includes
A Absolutely.
Q Specific provisions that would allow testing for
steroids?
A Absolutely. For anyone to use prescription drugs
illegally.
Q What was the specific rationale again for -A
Not listing it out?
Q It seems like a curious decision to me. If you
wanted it to be clear to your wrestlers that they were
included why not list them out?
A I just felt like — I think everybody at the time
felt like for a company of our size and where we were at and
how many days a week these people were working for us, this
was as comprehensive and included every single thing, the
WWE’s did without specifically spelling it out.
Q Did you, at any point, spell out to your wrestlers
that steroids were covered under that policy?
A Absolutely. We went through this policy with them
when they received the’handbooks and, you know, everybody
was told — we walked through it, we walked through every
one of these steps. And every wrestler that comes and signs
44
a contract with us gets this in advance and I believe has to
sign it, that they reviewed it with us.
Q Okay. And did you when you gave them that
policy, did you indicate there would definitely be tests at
some point?
A At this point it was to reserve the right and we’ll
test if there was suspicion.
Q Okay.
A And since this has been enacted, we have had several
suspensions and terminations and those that have been sent
to rehab for drinking or things such as that. But no
testing was quite honestly necessary because it was obvious.
Q Okay. So .you’ve not conducted any tests under that
current policy?
A No.
Q Okay. All right. I’m going to give you a March 24,
2006 draft of the policy. We’ll mark that Exhibit 4.
[Carter Exhibit No. 4
was marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q This draft — stipulation 5 of this draft, which
is the third page — that stipulates that TNA reserves the
right to drug test.
A Right.
Q This — as we’ve walked through the chronology of
45
drafts we’ve been given, this is the first mention of drug
testing in any of the drafts.
A This one right here?
Q Uh-huh. This is the March 23rd draft. Can you -again,
I apologize. This is a little bit specific, but the
initial e-mail that began your — the discussion your
talent policy came on February 28th. There were several
drafts in between that did not include reference to drug
testing of any kind. The reference to drug testing
includes finally, appears in the March 23rd draft. Can
you walk us through the discussions that ensued between
February 28th and the final decision to include, I guess,
the decisions not to include drug testing provisions in the
initial drafts and then the final decision that led to the
appearance of the right to drug test in this March 23rd
draft?
A I don’t think it was a decision not to drug test at
first. We never sat down and said this is our drug policy,
now let’s put it in place. We throughout this entire
policy, the entire talent handbook, we just started off with
a first draft and then we reviewed it and brought more
people in to look at it and started pulling more information
as we were doing it.
Considering how understaffed our company was at the
time for us to have even turned something around like this
46
was in pretty quick order and showed me that this was a
priority for our company on a very fast track. So I think
what we did is we just began to pull more policies in,
people started talking and we started adding. It was not a
conscious decision, oh, let’s leave it out at first, no,
let’s do it and there were no discussions like that had.
[…] of TNA President Dixie Carter’s Interview with Govt Officials about Steroids (Part Three) Complete Transcript of TNA President Dixie Carter’s Interview with Govt Officials about Steroids (… Complete Transcript of TNA President Dixie Carter’s Interview with Govt Officials about Steroids […]