Here is the third part of a transcript of an interview government officials conducted with TNA president Dixie Carter on Thursday, December 6, 2007 largely regarding steroid use in her company as well as professional wrestling. Carter also goes into great detail on the behind the scenes aspects of TNA.
Q Were there any discussions before that was included
of the potential costs of drug testing or if this — the
cost of including that provision in the draft?
A It was in this — in the discussing of it?
Q As you discussed the draft, as you discussed how the
policies would turn out, was there discussions that it is
going to cost us money to drug test, it may end up with -are
we — we’d have to set up a testing program. We’d have
to do X, Y and Z. Were there those kind of economic
discussions that were going on about that particular
provision or provisions that were not included in drafts for
the final version?
A There have been discussion of every time we have had
to testing or physicals or things such as that, there has
always been financial discussions. Quite honestly up until,
you know, this year, we have been operating at a significant
loss. And so I’m sure that there were people talking about
how much anything costs. We talked about the cost of paper.
I mean, it was that kind of an existence for a company.
Mr. Cohen. Any other questions about the initial
development of TNA policies and procedures?
Mr. Buffone. Just to clarify.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q Was it your understanding that testing from the
initial discussions when you first heard the WWE wellness
policy that the testing always was on the table?
A For us? Oh, absolutely. I think we decided from
the beginning we needed a policy that allows us to randomly
test people when we want and that protects us when we ask
these guys who don’t work for us full time that we want to
do this and that they have to agree to it in advance and
there are certain legal things that we need to make sure
that we cover on both sides.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q All right. The next document I’m going to provide
you with is an e-mail dated May 31, 2006.
A Uh-huh.
Q This will be Exhibit 5.
[Carter Exhibit No. 5
was marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q This is now after the final version of the drug
policies that has gone into effect. This May 31, 2006
e-mail is from Steve Campbell to you regarding blood and
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48
drug tests — blood and drug testing. The drug test
includes according to this e-mail marijuana, cocaine, PCP,
amphetamines and barbiturates. Did this drug testing occur?
A That drug testing did not. At this time, we were, I
believe, complying with an OSHA request from the State of
Florida if I’m — I don’t know if that — but that is my
memory from this. And we did the testing that they
requested. But again, we were not — had not made the
decision to do, you know, talentwide testing. It was based
upon reason. And — so we were complying with an OSHA, I
believe it was request.
Q So that was specific compliance testing?
A Specific compliance, correct, for the State of
Florida, I believe. That’s who did it. But it was for our
shows in Orlando.
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RPTS DEAN
DCMN MAGMER
[2:05 p.m.]
Q The final version of the drug policy -A
Do I have that?
Q Yes, that is Exhibit
A 0011?
Q Double 09?
A Okay.
Q The drug policy says TNA reserves the right to
conduct random drug tests and other tests in accordance with
government requirements.
A Correct.
Q Can you walk me through your understanding of the
meaning of that final provision “in accordance with
government requirements”?
A When you tour, there is athletic commissions in each
State and each State has from pretty much no provisions
whatsoever to pretty strict provisions of needing full
physicals, blood work and things such as that. So those are
State government requirements, and so we wanted to make sure
that they knew that we could be asking them at any given
time to provide HIV testing and other things that would be
required of us to operate and do business.
Q It is not clear from this that you reserve the right
50
to conduct random drug tests outside of government
requirements. Was that made clear to the wrestlers?
A I think it is two totally different deals. One is
to conduct random drug tests and then — and other tests in
accordance with government requirements.
Q The other question is — we’re back on this
particular document.
A Which document?
Q The same one.
A Okay.
Q Actually, let’s go back to the testing in the May
31st e-mail. This was testing — again, per your initial
previous request, this was testing that was done to meet
government requirements. Were all your — in this set of
testing, were all your — was all your talent tested?
A Yes, yes, sir. And looking at the dates on this
Q Uh-huh.
A — the OSHA request probably came up -Q
Uh-huh.
A between this date and this, and it was — counsel
provided to us that we probably let them know in advance
that they would have do that. That looks like the timing of
that, and that’s why that was added as well.
Q Okay. This — the final version of this policy,
provision 6 of this, this refers to the Florida Department
51
of Health Bureau of Epidemiology’s request.
A Uh-huh.
Q Is that the — was that the impetus for those May
31st tests?
A Yes, uh-huh.
Q Prior to your — when did you become aware of those
requirements?
A At this point, that was the first time.
Q And prior to becoming aware of those requirements
and setting up the tests, the June 19th tests, were there
any plans — did TNA have any plans to conduct drug testing
under this drug policy?
A I think it says we have the right to conduct random
drug tests. I believe if I go back and read it, it does say
that if there is any suspicion then we would random drug
test. Is that the question?
Q I’m asking were there any plans to conduct the
tests?
A There had not been any suspicions; and, like I said
before, several times when there were suspicions we talked
with the talent and they were dealt with, whether it be
suspended without pay and then termination.
Q Is it your understanding that these provisions allow
you only to conduct testing if there’s suspicion?
A No, this says we can conduct random drug tests; and
52
that could mean the entire roster or it could mean with
suspicion.
Q Okay. And to clarify, though, there had not been
any plans prior to your becoming aware of —
A To test the entire roster, not at this point.
Q The Florida Department of Health —
A Not back in
Q There were no plans at that time?
A Correct.
BY MR BUFFONE:
Q Is it your understanding or recollection that you
learned of the Florida compliance after you learned of the
wellness policy; do you remember?
A I don’t know. The request did not come in to me. I
just remember hearing about it in that April, May. I would
assume that came in after. That may have been a reaction to
the WWE wellness policy coming out. I believe their
substance policy came out as a reaction to the Eddie
Guerrero death. So I believe when Eddie Guerrero died, I
believe they instituted the wellness policy. I think that
was the driving force behind that.
Q Uh-huh.
A And that may have also been the driving force in us
being requested of this information as well.
Q Okay.
53
A But I don’t have that information specifically why
they requested that and when.
Mr. Buffone. All right.
BY MR COHEN:
Q Since that May of — now moving ahead a little bit
with the policy and where we stand now, have there been any
changes to TNA’s policies and procedures concerning drug use
since May of 2006?
A Yes. Actually, earlier this year, probably second
quarter, we started talking about the desire to do a more
proactive test, not because we felt that there was reason or
doubt but because we felt like, in our desire to distinguish
our company, for us to say certain things it needed to be -I
needed to be able to walk into a congressional meeting and
say, hey, guys, here’s exactly what you’re looking for. You
don’t have to take my word. For us to come out there and do
some of the proactive ways in which we wanted to position
our company.
We were using the words, “the new face of professional
wrestling”. Quite honestly, our biggest challenge in
staying in business is fighting the perception of wrestling.
It’s a dirty word out there and for good reason. We have
had to go in there and try to convince people we will be
different to work with. You are working with a different
kind of people, organization. So that has been a big
54
challenge for us. So that was one of the reasons we felt
like earlier this year we were going to do that.
We started talking about it in executive meetings. At
first, it was discussed on starting to put that together and
wanting to institute something by the summer, and we started
talking about it. And then the Chris Benoit tragedy
happened, and we had already begun conversations prior to
that
Q To get a sense
A probably in the executive meetings.
There’s four people who meet in the executive meeting.
It’s Jeff Jarrett, myself, Dean Broadhead and Andy Barton.
That’s a meeting that we would have once every 2 weeks
depending upon schedules and things such as that just to
talk about every issue out there. We would talk about
talent issues, anything, any kind of staff meeting type of
executive decision.
We started talking about it — again, Andy and I
brought this up and just felt like — you know what?
Because I run more of the marketing side of the company
where I was wanting to go and really hit this new face
professional wrestling and try to be more aggressive with
letting people know we are different, let’s make sure we
have empirical proof to back that up. Let’s — we’re in a
position where we can do it, and we can do it on an ongoing
55
basis.
And so we started talking about that in probably
April — March, April, and then started really looking at
additional documents in May of what it would constitute and
then got very, very aggressive with it in the summer. But
our plans were all along from the September time period what
we had talked about from the beginning.
Mr. Buffone. Just to clarify, that’s pre the Benoit
death?
Ms. Carter. Uh-huh. We had not set that date, but we
wanted to do it before the end of the summer.
Mr. Cohen. I’m going to move to a July 11th e-mail
from Dean Broadhead to Guy Blake. I’m going to mark that
Exhibit 6.
[Carter Exhibit No. 6
was marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q In that e-mail, Mr. Broadhead had just announced to
TNA talent that TNA will begin drug testing on September
1st.
A Urn-hum.
Q Was that announcement ever made?
A Yes, it was.
Q When and how?
A Through Terry Taylor, our director of talent
56
relations. I don’t remember the exact date, but it was
probably at one of the tapings shortly thereafter. We only
tape every 2 weeks, so it would have been on one of the
subsequent tapings after that.
Q And how was that — in what way did he announce that
those tests would be conducted?
A He communicated verbally with them.
Q And there was no paper, no materials, no documents?
A No. Again, at this time we, you know, were not
prepared, you know, to have a congressional investigation,
but we were trying to do the right thing. And so he
communicated with them —
Q Okay.
A — verbally.
Q Did he indicate specifically that testing would be
conducted on September 1st or what — in what way did he
inform the talent that the tests would be conducted?
A Dean didn’t know the pro — he probably — September
1st I don’t even believe we were taping. That’s why we
chose September 10th, because it was a taping date where we
would have already had to fly in our guys live allover
the country. So, obviously, for an expense reason we wanted
to do it while they were already there. So we just knew
that we wanted to do it by September, and so that’s why he
had put that date there.
57
Q Okay. So at that point in August of ’07 Mr. Taylor
indicated to the TNA talent that TNA would be conducting
steroid tests in particular?
A Everything, absolutely, steroids, illegal drugs.
Q Your intention was to conduct drug tests for both
steroids and illegal drugs?
A Yes.
Q And who had you been contracted with?
A I believe you have that e-mail, again, I believe it
was set up through our doctor, I think Centra Care or — in
Florida.
Mr. Cohen. Why don’t we introduce — we’ve got -there
are two e-mails. One is dated August 8th, 2007 — is
this August 8th or August 9th? One is dated August 15th,
2007. Those are Exhibits 7 and 8.
[Carter Exhibits No. 7 and 8
Were marked for identification.]
BY MR. COHEN:
Q At the first page of the August 9th e-mail, it looks
like it was forwarded, an e-mail from August 8th from Terry
Taylor to Gregg Pond.
A Correct. I would assume he is with the Florida
hospital. Strategic account manager who works with
corporate groups so probably not individual patients.
Q The August 8th e-mail requests testing on ~eptember
58
10th, 2007, for steroids, cocaine, opiates and amphetamines?
A Uh-huh.
Q Can you describe the testing that was scheduled, and
it indicates it was scheduled for September 10th?
A What had been scheduled, I believe, is what they
call a five-panel drug test, and I don’t know what all these
are, cocaine, cannabinoids, opiates, amphetamines, PCP and
then steroids.
Q How is this testing scheduled? Was your talent
given notification that they would be tested on September
10th?
A I’m don’t know if they were told exactly what date
it would be, but they were told that we would begin drug
testing not just with cause but the entire talent roster.
Q Okay. What did you plan do with these test results?
A Act upon them. Hopefully, they would show that
everybody was clean, but if there was a problem we would
have taken care of it.
Q In what way?
A It just depends on what came back. If it was any of
these serious problems, then I mean it would be suspension
or termination.
Q And had you discussed among yourselves what — how
the policy would work?
A As far as what the results would be?
59
Q As far as what actions you would take depending upon
what the results showed?
A Absolutely. There would be an automatic suspension,
and then determination would be made as to whether there
would be termination as well.
Q Did you have in mind different — give an example of
steroids. How long a suspension did you have in mind for
talent who tested positive for steroids?
A Well, throughout the summer we had been talking
about what needs to — actually, we were also talking about
an administrator and things such as that that will be
providing us a lot of that information to help us put this
in place.
Q Uh-huh.
A So we were moving forward on this quickly because we
knew we wanted to do it.
Q Right.
A And 3 months was the first amount of time, I believe
from memory, that was thrown out for that, but it depended.
If it was prescribed by a doctor, you know what I’m saying,
or was it in a large amount nonprescribed by a doctor, and
we were told we would need to find out all of that
information based upon results of tests.
Q Okay.
A That it wasn’t just as simple as getting a test
60
result back.
Q Was it your intention — to the extent there were
suspensions, was it your intention to make those suspensions
public?
know.
A Oh, absolutely, absolutely. You have to. People
I mean, I held a talent meeting with my talent in
closed doors and kicked everybody out on Monday, and 1 hour
later it was out on the Internet. So I choose to do things
proactively and publicly versus let somebody else be in
control of what’s said about us.
Q Were there provisions for therapeutic use, for
example, if there were a doctor’s prescription?
A Absolutely, and we laid that out because we knew of
specific guys in our current roster that were under a
doctor’s care for different situations
problems with massive uses of steroids
past injuries,
for some of our
old guys who are in their mid 40s at this point and things
such as that. We were aware of that. We were told if they
were under doctors’ care for legitimate reasons that that
would be an exemption.
Q You laid that out -~
A In this original drug policy. It says it is not a
violation of TNA policy for an independent contractor to use
medications prescribed by a licensed and treating physician
61
for a legitimate medical purpose, but we had to know about
that.
Q Who is responsible for conducting reviews under that
provision?
A Meaning their own doctors?
Q Who makes the decision that it was a legitimate
doctor for a legitimate medical purpose?
A Well, Terry will talk to the talent and find out who
their doctors are and what prescriptions they are taking.
Q And Terry, to my understanding, has no medical
background himself?
A No, he does not, obviously.
BY MR BUFFONE:
Q You said you mentioned a couple of times we were
told we needed to do this. Who was the, person telling you
about what you needed in the testing policy? Or what type
of people were consulting? Were you talking with lawyers
or
A No, what I was just referring to was an attorney
telling us, well, you cannot not allow somebody to have
you know, you can’t — can’t suspend somebody for using
something if they are under or being treated by an
appropriate doctor for a legitimate condition. So when that
test comes back, you have to make sure that they know that
that is the situation.
62
Q Was this an attorney who has experience and
background in testing policies?
A No, but I believe he did review several policies and
I’m of the understanding that he contacted some people and
talked about different things.
Q And have you discussed this test or testing in
January with any testing policy experts or people who do
have background in testing policies?
A Well, we’re putting an entire new drug policy in
place. It will be — I don’t know if it will be reflective
of WWE’s, but it will be much more thorough, comprehensive,
and that will be done and have to be done, obviously, by the
time that we do the testing.
Q Are you relying on experts to put that policy in
place?
A We’ve actually contacted a couple of people, one in
particular — oh, it’s the clean sports dot org; You all
probably know the company.
Ms. Despres. Drug Free Sport?
Ms. Carter. Drug Free Sport, uh-huh.
We’ve had at least a couple of conversations with them.
And that’s one thing that I’ll ask Andy to continue to
conduct, you know, to look at. Because we have to make a
decision on an administrator and things such as that. That
is who I believe it was.
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Who else do they represent, do you know?
Ms. Despres. I don’t. I mean, their name comes up all
the time in everything, but
Mr. Cohen. I think they work pretty much with high
schools.
Ms. Carter. They are pretty stringent.
Ms. Despres. I feel like they are pretty involved in
high school as well.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q The second one, Exhibit 8, the August 15th e-mail
that cancels the request for testing and states, “We are
complying with a congressional request,” some more
background on why you decided to cancel those tests?
A Well, I think again we did not know, quite honestly,
what this process would entail, if we would be given our
mandated new rules, regulations, et cetera, and wanted to be
sure and comply. And, like I said, when we did not hear
back from you after this original letter back in I don’t
know when it was originally sent to us, but when we did not
hear back for a period of time, we went ahead and decided to
go ahead and put this on the books regardless if it was
acceptable or not by this committee.
Q Okay.
A At least to get the ball rolling on our part. We
didn’t want to delay it anymore.
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