Here is the first part of a transcript of an interview government officials conducted with TNA president Dixie Carter on Thursday, December 6, 2007 largely regarding steroid use in her company as well as professional wrestling. Carter also goes into great detail on the behind the scenes aspects of TNA.
Mr. Cohen. This is an interview of Dixie Carter conducted by the house committee on oversight and government reform. This interview is part of the committee’s investigations into the use of performance enhancing drugs in professional wrestling.
Mr. Cohen. Ms. Carter, can you please state your full name for the record.
Ms. Carter. Dixie Carter Salinas.
Mr. Cohen. My name is Brian Cohen. I’m a member of the majority staff. Ms. Carter, you’re represented by counsel. Can your counsel state your full names for the record as well?
Mr. Cacheris. Plato Cacheris and John Hundley representing Ms. Carter.
Mr. Cohen. Let’s have the other people in the room identify themselves as well.
Ms. Despres. Sarah Despres with the majority staff.
Mr. Buffone. Sam Buffone, majority staff.
Ms. Safavian. Jennifer Safavian, Republican staff.
Mr. Chance. Benjamin Chance, Republican staff.
Mr. Cohen. Before beginning, I have a few standard instructions and explanations regarding the interview to go over. The reporter will be recording everything you say and will make a written record of the interview. As you give answers, please give verbal, audible answers because the reporter obviously cannot record nods or gestures. I’m going to ask you questions on a particular subject matter. When I finish my questions on a specific matter, I’ll turn to my colleagues and ask them if they have any additional questions. We’ll make every effort not to take up any more of your time than we need to collect the information that we need. If you need a break at any time, please let us know and we can step out and take a couple of minutes to rest and relax. This is not a deposition. So you’ll not be placed under oath. You’re required by law, however, to answer questions from Congress truthfully. Is there any reason you’re unable to provide truthful answers in today’s hearing.
Ms. Carter. Absolutely not.
Mr. Cacheris. I understand we’ll be given a copy -access to the transcript to review when it is completed?
Mr. Cohen. Correct. You’ll be invited in — it is usually 2 or 3 days?
Mr. Buffone. Within a week.
Mr. Cohen. Within a week or so, we’ll have the transcript and we’ll invite you in to review it. You can’t take it with you or make copies, but you can review it and make any changes.
Mr. Cacheris. We will probably do it after, the holidays if you don’t mind, Brian.
Mr. Cohen. I think that will work okay.
Mr. Cacheris. That will work, won’t it? Mr. Cohen.
Mr. Cohen. I’m almost certain it will. I will be asking questions about several Do you have any questions specific documents during today’s interview. I’ll ask that as we ask those questions, we also put those documents into the official transcript record. before we begin?
Ms. Carter. No, sir.
Mr. Cacheris. What is the confidentiality of this
transcript, Brian? It is obviously shared with all of you
and your members, I guess.
Mr. Cohen. We as a committee, we always have the
the committee always has the right to make these kind of
interviews public. In this case, that is decided pursuant
to committee rules. In this case, we have not made any
decision.
Mr. Cacheris. No decision?
Mr. Cohen. That’s correct.
Mr. Cacheris. Okay. All right.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. COHEN:
Q All right. We’ll begin by asking some background
questions about TNA wrestling and your role at TNA. First,
6
please state your current position for the record.
A I’m currently President of TNA wrestling.
Q And what are your responsibilities in that position?
A I’m ultimately responsible for everything that
happens within the company.
Q How long have you been TNA president?
A I’ve been president since the spring of 2003.
Q And can you briefly describe your professional
experience prior to your current job with TNA?
A Prior to TNA wrestling, I owned my own company in
Nashville and moved there at 26 years old and started my own
company in the music business and entertainment business and
represented a variety of different music acts and worked in
the motion picture industry some and represented a few
athletes as well mostly in the marketing, PR and promotions
side of the industry. But right before this, I was doing
management, artist management as well.
Q Okay. If you could just give us a little slightly
description of your roles and your day-to-day
responsibilities within TNA.
A I was first brought in I was offered the
opportunity to take a meeting with TNA wrestling, and quite
honestly, I was not a fan of current wrestling products, but
I knew it was a big business and so I took the meeting
anyway, and was very impressed with the people that were
there and it seemed completely out of character from what my
perception of the business was. And I took on TNA wrestling
as a client and I handled their marketing, PR and promotions
when I first started the company. It was a very, very small
served, funded company and they lost its funding weeks after
its first show quite honestly, and people only gave them
weeks to survive anyway.
So it was right on time. And then I helped them find
an investor which happened to be my family’s company out of
Dallas. It is an energy company and it was a completely
nonstrategic investment for them but they felt like, you
know, there was only one competitor in the industry and that
there was an opportunity there. And so I continued on in
that same role until the spring of 2003 when I was — I
moved into the presidency.
Q Okay. Can you walk us through the organizational
structure of TNA Wrestling?
A Currently?
Q Uh-huh.
A Currently we finally had some dollars to hire some
people to do some stuff. We have the company is — it
centers around the creative process. It is — really, we’re
scripted television. And up until just recently and in our
future plans for 2008, we’ve done nothing but be a
television production company. We didn’t tour. We held, on
7
8
average, three shows a month all for television purposes.
So under that, the biggest part of our group would be the
creative guys who write and script the television show. And
then we have the production company who — you know, the
director, the producers and the truck and then those people.
And these are all just day workers for us. But we do have a
production crew that comes in on day of show.
And we have very bare, like, up until recently, one PR
person, one marketing person that we just hired earlier this
year. We have a licensing — two people in licensing. We
do our toys through Marvel, which does Spiderman and the
Incredible Hulk. We have a video coming out in May of ‘0S
with Midway. So that is a division that has grown with us
through our television exposure. Then — excuse me, one
more, International. We take our domestic television show
and then we license it internationally as well.
Q Okay. Can you describe the employment relationship
between
A The what relationship?
Q The employment relationship between your talent -I’m
going to ask this question in two parts. First, your
creative talent. Is your creative talent, are they
full-time staff or are they brought in on a —
A No. They are all independent contractors, but we do
have a contract with them. Up until just recently, our
9
talent — when we first started, they were on literally four
weeks at a time and we only had a few of them because we
didn’t know how long we were going to stay in business. And
then we signed more. But because we only worked with
them if every single guy was on every show which would
never happen anyway, the most they could work would be 36
times a year with us which was on average three times a
month. But we did have them under contract just where they
could not go work for the only competitor that we would care
about, which would be the WWE, but we allowed them — there
is a multitude of other organizations, domestically and
internationally, wrestling companies that they also worked
for.
Q Okay. So to clarify, the employment relationship
between the wrestling talent and TNA, the wrestlers are
considered independent contractors?
A Correct.
Q But there is contractual provisions that -A
Just to prevent them from WWE.
Q And allow them to work with any other organization?
A Correct.
Q How many wrestlers do you currently have under
contract?
A Currently we have between 50 and 60. We just signed
a big two-hour television agreement with Spike TV which is
the biggest milestone in our companies history. So we have
10
just recently acquired more talent to be able to fill from
one hour to two hours worth of programming.
Q And what is the typical length of contract between
TNA and its wrestlers?
A There is not one set one, but it is as least — we
try to on ones we would like to have longer relationships
with, I belieye it is one year with two one-year options.
Some of them are under contract as show to show.
Q I was going to say, are there short-term contracts
as well?
A Very much so, yes, sir.
Q Okay. And can you give us a sense of the pay
structure for your talent? What are wrestlers typically
paid and what is the range of salaries for your wrestlers?
A This is the confidential part, but — the
confidential part, but
Mr. Cacheris. She feels it is confidential. So
I don’t think we’re asking for any
she’ll tell you to answer your question.
Ms. Carter. I have no problem you knowing, but just
the average wrestling fan.
Ms. Safavian.
names of individuals.
Ms. Carter. No, but they’ll know. They’ll start off
at
11
BY MR. COHEN:
Q To clarify — before you answer this question, I’ll
again reiterate what I told you at the beginning. The
committee always reserves the right to make this material
public. Of course, we’ll take your considerations into
account as we go through those deliberations.
A They are usually paid in — between — I’d say 90
percent of our talent are paid
~per show. There are a few exceptions that are paid
more than that, but that is the solid range.
Q Okay. And
A And they’re paid per appearance.
Q I was going to say the basis is per appearance.
A So it is not a lot of money. That’s why we — you
know, they do work outside as well.
Q Okay. You had started to go over this a little bit.
Can you walk us through TNA’s current schedule, how you’re
schedule is set up?
A Yes, absolutely. Up until October 4th, we had a
one-hour show on Spike TV, and we deliver a 1 hour
pay-per-view every month to, like, In-Demand and Direct TV
and DISH, where you pay $29 to get the show. On Spike TV,
when we had one show, because we were operating in the red,
we were taping two shows a day. We film at Universal
Studios in Orlando. We were taping two shows a day. So we
12
would film two l-hour shows. When we went to the 2-hour
format on October 4th, we couldn’t do 4 hours of taping in
one day. So now we do if we have a pay-per-view, it is
Sunday and then we’ll tape Monday, Tuesday. So they go to
Orlando and we’ll tape Sunday, Monday, Tuesday there. And
then we’ll wait 2 weeks and then come back Monday, Tuesday.
That’s on average what we do.
Q So how many shows — yoqr typical wrestler, how many
;. > ••••,,_. I
s1’ Ira lIiflill they do in a given year?
A For us?
Q Uh-huh.
A The most they can do if they are on every single
show and very few are on every single show would be 64 now.
Ms. Despres. A year?
Ms. Carter. Yes, ma’am.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q And typically on a given show what — how many
wrestlers I guess it is changing a little bit because you
are going to 2 hours. But say a 2-hour show — now you’ve
got 50 to 60 on a contract. A typical 2-hour show, how may
wrestlers will YQu use?
A A typical 2-hour show, you might have as many as 40,
maybe a few more on the show where half of them or more than
half may not wrestle, but they’d be used in the scripted
story lines to further character development and things such
13
as that.
Q Okay. What is TNA’s annual revenue?
A This year we should do — it would be $15 million.
And I would like to check that number. I’m not —
Q And can you walk us through the sources of that
revenue?
A Absolutely.
Q Just in a general sense giving us how much they
cog~ribute to the company?
A Absolutely. The licensing fee from Spike is a
majority of that. We have pay-per-view licensing and
international licensing and then we have merchandise and toy
sales and things such as that. And the first three would be
the majority of our income, you know, pretty much evenly
split. Maybe a little more in television rights.
Q Okay. And you’ve got no Live Gate component of your
revenue? It is
A Well, we’ve toured so few times, what we’d call a
house show, which is a nontelevised show. It is something
we want to do. Up until this point, we have been mostly a
television production company, but we want to get out there
and start touring. But you have to create the demand first.
It is a very expensive business. So our goal in 2008 is to
tour. And we have tested the waters in a few markets this
year before we get out there next.
14
Q Okay. And with regard to your television ratings,
what is TNA’s prime demographic?
A We hope our prime demographic is men 18 to 34, but
men 18 to 49 is really what Spike TV is looking for and what
we have a tendency to deliver the highest demo in.
Q Okay. Are adolescent males and adolescents in
general an important demographic for TNA?
A They are not at all to the network. Really they
just look at that 18 to 49, really 25 to 34 is their key
demo that they’re going after, you know. But to us, we’re
kind of — we call ourselves Shakespeare to the masses. So
it is really — you know, we pride ourselves on being a
family friendly show. So we’re trying to get the
grandparents back to bringing their children. Where, you
know, I would not let my children watch other product
necessarily, we try to make it where, you know, it appeals
to all ages.
Q How do you do that? What is your — how would you
describe the differences between say the WWE show and a TNA
show?
A The pay-per-views have a rating of a TV 14. So your
pay-per-views have a tendency to go a little bit more, be a
little bit more violent in like a brutal type of match, like
a cage match or you’ll see things such as that. But on
television, we bleep out our language. We film at Universal
15
Studios. We are a park attraction. So if that gives you
any kind of guidelines of what we have to follow, that is
pretty much — that sums it up to me. It is us and Shrek
and Dora and Twister. So there is a little of everything in
there.
Mr. Cohen. I’m done with this set. Anybody else have
anything you want to add?
EXAMINATION
BY MS. DESPRES:
Q Can I just go back to the demographics? One of your
sources of revenue are toys?
A Uh-huh.
Q Can you describe what kind of?
A It is mostly collectibles, action figures. And I
don’t know if any of the men around this table admit to
having any. But it is really — it is more in the
collectible side where guys keep the toys and they keep them
in their boxes and then they increase in value and things
such as that. They’re not as much, you know, play toys as
more collectible items.
Q And who is the target audience for those items?
A Well, collectibles are a much older demographic. I
mean, they are probably — I mean, they are more grown men.
I mean, 20s, 30s, 40s, 50s even. Have you seen the
40-Year-Old Virgin with that man that has all the toys? I
16
mean, that is kind of — that’s our audience.
Q And what is the pr~ce point for those?
A It just depends. Some are, like, 9.99 and some get
up to $29. They are not real expensive because they collect
in mass. I mean, those that collect have a tendency to get
everything that is out there.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Do you know what percentage of your viewership is in
the 13 to 18 or
A It would be 12 to 17.
Q Approximately?
A 10, 15 percent. And I’d really have to go back and
check viewership. But I know that a majority of our ratings
are 18 to 49. Actually our median age on our show since we
started two hours I think is 39 years old. And that
fluctuates each week a little bit especially since we’re
newer. Once it gets into more months, it will stay within a
year or two.
Mr. Cohen. Okay.
Ms. Safavian. I don’t have anything.
Mr. Chance. Nothing.
Mr. Cohen. All right. Next set questions is going
to be on TNA’s hiring practices.
Ms. Carter. Hiring, okay.
BY MR. COHEN:
17
Q How do you recruit talent for TNA?
A How do we recruit talent? There is a finite group
of wrestlers that are out there. A majority of them work
for the industry leader, obviously WWE. So you have two
options when you’re a company such as ours and that is to go
over who is not currently under contract with them or to
find new talent. And developing new talent does not
obviously sell. You know, it is not real popular and it is
not going to draw your ratings and it takes a while to
develop. So now that we have hit our 5th year mark, we
finally have a group of TNA talent that have started to gain
in popularity. Most of them are in their late 20s, early
30s. We do have several other talent that have had
especially early on in our days prior to me being president,
just whoever was out there and available. And most
eveiybody with a name has worked at a former organization
whether it be WCW, which is no longer in business or WWF or
WWE.
Q Do you — just to clarify. You’ve got your stable
of talent, the talent you mentioned that has been there for
five years and it is starting to get its name. Those
were that group came from —
A The new guys?
Q Yeah. Those were — you hired those
independently —
18
A People that we heard about on the independent
circuit, somebody who happened to see somebody on a small
show. And When I say small, it could be anywhere from 150
to 500 people at a bingo hall, a K.C. hall, something along
those lines. But they’re standouts. I mean, our guy that
we have now came from one of our top guys who will win
the heavyweight belt, it will be one of our first big
made — our own talent. He — you know, we heard about him
up in the ring of honor circuit up in Philadelphia. And you
know here is a guy and he is big, and I don’t mean muscular
big, I just mean big and he moves like lightning and he is
really great and you should check him out.
So we’d bring him in for a dark match, which means it
is nontelevised put on before we go on to air just to see
how he does in the ring in front of people. And then you
give him a shot at losing on a show for a couple of times
and then just see if they work. But the people who write
the show and our director of talent relations, between them,
they know every single wrestler personally that is out
there. Because it is not that many people. So they’ve
either worked with them in the past or have heard of them or
know somebody who has.
Q Okay. And your second group of those that you have
brought in that have worked for
A Other organizations.
19
Q Other large organizations, what percent of your
talent has come from other organizations?
A Right now — this would be a guess without sitting
in front of a talent roster — 50/50.
Q Okay. And what kind —
A Which is something we’re proud of because, I mean,
we finally have gotten to a point where we can have that
many of our own guys on the show.
Q What is turnover like? I mean, how typical — a
typical year, how many of your — how much of your talent
turn over?
A They don’t quit, you know, because they’re under
contract. They — it would just be if a character or a
story line is not working out. We still have a lot of guys
on our roster from the very first show. But there have been
a lot that came on, especially in those early days from my
understanding that just, you know, didn’t have the talent,
didn’t work out, had — a lot of these guys have a lot of
baggage from pre-existing relationships with other companies
and didn’t fit the mold.
Q Okay. You had mentioned the baggage that some of
your wrestlers bring. I think in the context of that kind
of baggage, can you walk us through — when you’re
considering whether to contract with a specific wrestler,
what kind of factors do you take into consideration? How is
20
that decision made?
A Talent is very important. You know, we are about
quality in the ring. Ours is not as much about, like, story
lines and — I mean, we do have story lines and character
development, but it is not the — the focus is not on that.
Ours is mostly on the in-ring action. So they have to be —
you know, they have to be good wrestlers. They have to have
a reputation of being easy to work with. We — having a
talent — I mean, if you get 50 men in a room and a few
women in a room at any time, it is hard and you want a happy
environment, it is a challenge, especially when, you know,
these guys have big egos and the whole thing. And we have
from the very beginning made this kind of our law, that this
is a team, you may consider it an individual sport, it is a
team and you have to have the attitude of such. And then
secondly, you know, where they are at. I mean, we have a
lot of guys on our roster who are former addicts, you know,
who have been addicted to pain medicine for obvious reasons.
And some who have had substance abuse problems in the past,
alcohol and, you know, who have cleaned up their lives and
they are now in a different part of their life and are with
us now. So we do consider, like, everything about them.
Q Okay. I was going to say specifically, do you
provide guidance to your talent scouts regarding wrestlers
who have known or suspected drug problems?
21
A I don’t personally, because I don’t know them
personally. But they know. I mean, it is one of those
it is an industry and it is a very unique industry. I don’t
come from this industry. I have not been a part of it very
long. It is an extremely unique industry. These people
know everything about everybody. And probably, because some
of them I — even employees worked with them at times when
they knew what they were going through, or things such as
that. So they are very aware.
Q And do you provide any guidance to your talent
scouts that some of these issues may be red flags?
A Absolutely. We don’t hire anybody who has a
problem. And — but we do hire people who are in remission,
you know, or who have gone through therapy and have cleaned
up their lives and, you know —
Q And how do you determine that they are — that
they’re clean?
A Well, we’ve not tested them prior to them coming in.
But we do know, you know. And we do know because these
people have either been best friends with them for 10 years,
15 years and they don’t hide it. You know what I’m saying?
I mean, if people know that this person, you know, has been
on the record of doing drugs and quit for years leading up
to it or whatever.
Q What about steroids in particular? Do you provide
22
talent any — I ask this question — steroids — to the
extent someone has a problem with cocaine or painkillers,
that is something that I think you’re right, it can often be
an open secret.
A Very much so.
Q And people know about it. Individuals who are
taking steroids, they can be highly functional. It is not
like someone who has an addiction to different drugs. How
do you — do you provide any specific guidance with regard
to wrestlers who may be using steroids?
A In our drug policy, it says there is no steroid
you know, steroids would be coupled under prescription
medicine prescribed not by an appropriate physician.
Q Right.
A So that would fall under that. But you’re right, I
mean, that is the case. I mean, they would be fully
functioning. I think the look of a wrestler is your number
one ability to be able to look at somebody and tell. Our
talent — I brought them a few pictures. I don’t know if
you’d want me to show them.
Mr. Cacheris. Not now.
Ms. Carter. But our talent is they just look
different. You know what I’m saying? I have never and
would never and I profess to tell everybody that, you know,
we just want healthy, clean athletes. We don’t want
23
anything else. And you do not have to look like a cartoon
character. As a matter of fact, that does not fit our mold
for our company. And, you know, they — so that’s pretty
much the case.
—> Click here to read the next segment of the transcript <---
