Below is the second part of a transcript of an interview government officials conducted with Stephanie McMahon Levesque on Friday, December 14, 2007 largely regarding steroid use in World Wrestling Entertainment. McMahon also goes into great detail on the behind the scenes aspects of WWE.
Q What makes a great technician, a great wrestler?
A The craft of wrestling itself, which is more mechanical
than it is showmanship.
Q How much of that is up to the wrestlers, and how much of
it is scripted?
A The actual mechanics of a match?
Q Uh?huh.
A It depends on the situation. For most main?event
talent, they have been around a long time, they understand how to
do what they do. They have honed their craft. They are masters
of it. There is very little input from anybody else. For the
most part, it is, “Okay, here is who we want to win, and here is
how we want you to win.”
Because, for the most part, every superstar has a finishing
maneuver. Like, for example, Stone Cold, it was the Stone Cold
Stunner. And, you know, the audience knew if you were hit with
the Stone Cold Stunner ?? I cannot do the move while I say it ??
then you were most likely going to lose.
Q Okay.
A So it is a ride that the audience gets taken on.
And the art of wrestling itself is the ability to tell a
story in the ring without any words at all, with your body and
your face, and to make the people care so much that they want to
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either see you win and overcome the odds or they want to see you
lose. And that art, it is truly an art, the ability to take the
audience on that ride.
Q And so, I guess, generally, how much of that ride do you
and the creative staff direct for the wrestler?
A The creative staff, very little. We have on the road
what are called producers. They have also been called agents.
They are one and the same. And they are former stars in our
business and former professional wrestlers.
Q So are they talent?
A They are not talent.
Q Okay.
A What they do is they help guide a match. So they speak
with the talent ahead of time. Basically, they are getting the
talent to talk, to get their ideas out.
Again, the main?event guys know much more what they are doing
than the younger guys. And they say, “Okay, well, let’s help you
out here. And you are stuck in this part of your match.”
Because, again, there is pretty much a format to a match. And you
can switch it up and change it, but you have a beginning, a middle
and an end, like any story. And it is helping the guys get
started, helping them in the middle and helping them get into the
big finish, where you want to take people on that last go ’round.
Q Sure.
A But the producers are much more involved in the matches
27
than the writers are. The writers aren’t really involved in that.
Q And when do the producers get involved in the process?
Just before the match?
A The producers are e?mailed the shows over the weekend,
but, again, the producers are also working those live events.
This is also where the producers’ role come in. And the producers
also report to Talent Relations.
So the producers, they are still also called agents on the
road, and there is a head agent on the road. And they are
basically in charge of all the matches, all the story?telling that
happens on the road that is nontelevised. So they also have the
ability to work with this talent in their matches before ??
because, for example, you might have a pay?per?view match and a
live event prior to getting to the pay?per?view to get them to
work their kinks out, what works, what doesn’t work, that kind of
thing.
Q Uh?huh.
A So producers are involved pretty much at the ground
level.
Q Now, for talent that needs more direction, could you
actually script all of the moves of a match? I guess, would the
producer do that?
A I do not believe that that is feasible.
Q Okay.
A I don’t know of any situation ever where someone had
28
every single move scripted in a match. I suppose anything is
possible.
Q Uh?huh.
A But I would highly doubt that that would be possible.
Q Because?
A Because it is a lot to remember. And because the
audience tells you what is working and what is not working. And
if I grab Jerry and I put him in a headlock and the people aren’t
responding, I have to change on the fly.
Q He would probably respond if you did that.
Mr. McDevitt. They would probably root for that.
Ms. Levesque. But, you know, we have to change on the fly.
And that is the art that I am talking about, in terms of the
match. If you were following a formula and the people weren’t
with it, they don’t care to watch it, you know. And we never want
someone who doesn’t care. We want you to care one way or the
other. Either you love it or you hate it. Great. But don’t be
ambivalent. That is the worst.
Mr. Leviss. Okay. Makes sense.
Mr. Cohen. Could I just ask a quick question?
EXAMINATION
BY MR. COHEN:
Q This conversation you described between Stone Cold Steve
Austin and Mr. McMahon, when did that conversation take place?
A You would have to ask Vince. But I really can’t venture
a guess. I mean, I would say right before Stone Cold really
started to take off.
29
Q And that was? When did he start taking off?
A Late ’90s. So I would guess that conversation was
around ’96. But, again, that is a pure guess on my part.
Q Okay. Thank you.
I am sorry, one more follow?up here. Can you walk us through
a very quick description of a schedule of a typical wrestler? You
alluded to it, but, I think, in a little bit of detail, can you
sort of give us a Sunday?to?Sunday perspective on a typical
wrestler’s schedule?
A Sure. Our shows tour, although not every wrestler
performs on every show. So that is important to know.
But the basic touring schedule when we are domestic is Raw
tours Friday, Saturday, Sunday, with the live show on Monday.
SmackDown and ECW tour together. They tour Saturday, Sunday,
Monday, with the live show on Tuesday.
Now, when we go internationally, there is a period of time
off prior and there is a period of time off after, but we try to
extend our international tours, obviously, so we can stay further
away for a longer period of time.
Q And on the 3 off days, do they also have
responsibilities to the company? Do they make promotional
appearances or ??
A On occasion they make promotional appearances, but it is
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all looked at to make sure that no one works too much.
For example, John Cena, our top superstar, who is booked the
majority out of anybody, last year worked 161 days. So when you
look at that in the grand scheme of things, it doesn’t seem like
too hard of a schedule. But it definitely is, you know, a tough
schedule.
Q Do you have informal guidelines on how many days talent
can work in a month or a year? Do you have formal guidelines?
A Informally, some talent, they have dates that they
cannot work more than. But we always look at that, and we never
really hit that barometer. So certain talent do have a limit, a
cap on the number of days they can work a year in their contract.
And other talent ?? again, we actually ?? some talent wish
they could work more, because the more they work, the more money
they make. But with the roster the size we have, we just can’t
feature everybody all the time.
EXAMINATION
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q Do you have a running count in your creative meetings of
how many days talent has worked?
A Well, it is not the Creative, because storyline?wise
someone might be on TV, but if they have had a particularly hard
run, you might give them the live events off that week. So it is
really more of a Talent Relations call.
And yes, if someone ?? for example, Chris Benoit came to us
31
and said that he was having a very difficult time and he needed
time off for home. And so Talent Relations made the call, and
Talent Relations told Creative Writing we are not going to have
Benoit for 4 months. So no problem.
Q Does Talent Relations track each wrestler, how many days
they have worked that year?
A Yes.
BY MR. LEVISS:
Q How do you determine which of the talent to put in a
pay?per?view event?
A Well, again, we always want to have our main?event money
players. And then primarily it is who are we building, you know,
who are we building to hopefully have in that main?event spot in
years to come. We want to make sure we feature the people that we
believe have it and start the building process.
Q And “it” is, sort of, charisma?
A It is the total package, yes. It is the charisma. It
the ability to take the audience on a ride. It is hopefully some
wrestling ability, because you can’t ?? again, to use the parlance
of our business ?? shit the bed when you are out there. Excuse
me.
Q It is a business term, I understand.
A It actually is, believe it or not.
But if you have a terrible match out there, you know,
basically that is not good for your career either. You have to
32
have some wrestling ability.
Q Okay. And, again, does it make a financial difference
to the talent whether they appear in a pay?per?view versus another
match?
A Absolutely. Absolutely. I am sorry, let me ?? I
answered before you finished speaking.
Q No, I was finished.
A If they wrestle a pay?per?view versus a TV?
Q Yeah.
A Yes, they make more money on a pay?per?view.
Q Can you quantify that?
A It depends on the spot. If you are a main?event talent,
you make significantly more.
And it all depends on what the company makes. And the talent
make a percentage off of that. So it depends on what the buy rate
is. There is no fixed amount of ?? because you don’t know what
the pay?per?view is going to draw.
Q Sure.
A We always hope it is going to draw a lot, but it doesn’t
necessarily.
Q Can you just give me an example for comparison purposes?
A Of what?
Q Of the difference in what a talent makes on a
pay?per?view versus a TV event?
A Sure. A top?level talent could make anywhere from 150?
33
to 200? on a pay?per?view. And then on a TV, it is significantly
lower. It would be more like 10?.
Q Okay.
A And, again, those figures are very rough.
Q Sure. I understand.
A And WrestleMania, our Super Bowl, talent can make even
more than that.
Q How high can that go?
A Again, it depends on the buy rate.
Q Uh?huh.
A But it can go as high as, I think, a million. But,
again, I don’t have those figures in front of me.
Q Okay. It is the Super Bowl, after all.
A Right. And that is the top top that I am giving you.
Q Sure. No, I understand.
Sort of moving to a slightly different topic ?? is there
anything you wanted to cover?
Ms. Safavian. No.
Ms. Despres. I actually have just one.
EXAMINATION
BY MS. DESPRES:
Q What is the average professional life span of someone
who is a main?event wrestler? You know, how long do most people
last as main?event? Ten years, 5 years?
A It all depends. Again, like, for example, Ric Flair is,
34
I think, 54 years old and he is still wrestling. But the average
life span, I know we did this research, I just honestly can’t
remember.
Q And by “life span,” I mean professional life span.
A I know what you meant, career span. And we did that
research, and I just don’t want to misspeak. But it does vary.
Q Okay.
A And I can get that data to you. I just really don’t
want to misspeak.
Q That would be great. Thanks.
BY MR. LEVISS:
Q Are you familiar with what a typical contract looks like
for talent?
A Yes.
Q Can you describe the main provisions in a typical
contract?
A Sure. It would be, you know, the money.
Q Uh?huh.
A A lot of times it is the number of days that you work.
Q Okay.
A It would be your merch ratio, what the split is, which
our standard is ?? I just did this the other day. 25?10?10, I
think, is our standard. But, again, don’t quote me on that. I
have to get that.
Q And what would those numbers mean?
35
A It is 25 ?? the three categories: One category is
licensing, one category is merchandise, and the other category is,
you know, WWE merchandise.
Q Uh?huh.
A And, again, I could get you much more specific
information. I might be misspeaking a little bit, but that is in
general the split.
Q But the numbers you gave in that example would be the
percentage that the talent receives?
A Yes. And let me just backtrack for a second, because I
think I can get to a bigger question.
Q Okay.
A The talent participate in all sources of revenue in the
company. So a talent contract reflects a lot of that.
Q Okay.
A And it will reflect their participation in each of the
streams of revenue. And that was something that Vince implemented
since, you know, way before my time.
And it was one of the things that was very different than
what promoters did at that time. Our business, if you go back,
used to be regional. There was the northeast territory, there was
the southeast territory, the midwest, the northwest. You know, it
was all over the place.
Q Uh?huh.
A And with all of these different territories, my father,
36
Vince ?? sorry ?? had a vision ?? I can call him my father ?? but
he had a vision. And his vision was to have one company and make
it global and get sponsorship. And so what he did, much to my
grandfather’s chagrin ?? because my grandfather didn’t like to
rock the boat, but my father had a vision.
So, ultimately, when my dad bought the company from my
grandfather, that is what he did. He went into each individual
territory and basically invaded. And he wound up buying out all
of the other territories and creating one big global brand.
Now, we did have one major rival, again, more in the late
’90s, which was WCW, to a much smaller scale ECW, but WCW was a
part of the AWA, which was a territory in the past. And they held
onto their name. It was the one territory that Vince didn’t buy
or couldn’t buy, whatever the story is.
Q Okay.
A And so, at any rate, when Vince took the company global
and made one big company, he wanted to make sure that all the
talent were treated as fairly as possible. So he said, okay, all
of these streams of revenue that we have, we are going to have the
talent participate in it, those streams that they are involved in.
Q Okay.
A DVDs they receive royalties from for their appearances.
Merchandise, whether it is WWE?produced or whether it is a
licensed good, which is what I was referring to with the split ??
Q Uh?huh.
37
A ?? they receive a portion of the income.
Q Can you give me an example of licensed or WWE?produced?
A Sure. We have various licensees that produce a lot of
T?shirts that you will see.
Q Okay.
A Like the T?shirts when you walk into K?Mart and you see
a lot of WWE merchandise, a lot of that is licensed products. And
you can tell by the tag that it is not a WWE product. It is a
Hybrid T’s product, or it is a Fruit of the Loom product, which ??
we don’t have a deal with Fruit of the Loom, but I am just saying
that would be a licensed deal.
Q And WWE would receive a portion of that or a fee?
A WWE receives a portion. The talent receives a portion,
as well.
Q How about the Hulk Hogan action figures?
A Action figures, as well, they receive royalties. Hulk
Hogan is a little different. His deal is a little different. He
has been around a long time. I think Hulk owns all of his rights.
Q Do contracts for talent differ generally, or is it just
an individual superstar can negotiate his own terms?
A We have standards that really are prevalent in the
majority of the contracts. But, again, that top?level superstar,
they will vary little bits. Not very much.
Q Okay.
A There are no big, huge variances between the contracts.
38
Q Are there other, sort of, main provisions in the typical
contract? You talked about money, number of days, merch ratio.
A Travel.
Q What would it say about travel?
A If someone wanted to be a first?class traveler versus a
coach traveler. I mean, that is not a major provision. It is
just one that comes to mind.
Q Anything else?
A Those are really the main ones. I would say the money,
first and foremost. I am sure I am forgetting some.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Are there other contracts for other talent, for referees
or managers? Do those differ in any significant ??
A Dramatically, yes. Referees don’t participate in the
revenue, for example, of a T?shirt because they don’t have a
T?shirt. Referees have a booking contract, which is similar in
terms of it protects the company should something happen to them
in the ring, but is different in terms of the monetary.
I would say mainly the money is the biggest difference in
their contracts. But, again, I am not legal, and I do look at
things from, you know, 50,000 feet. So I don’t want to misspeak
in terms of the details.
Q Sure.
BY MR. LEVISS:
Q Are contracts negotiated or renewed annually?
39
A No, it depends on the term of the contract. For
example, if we have a 3?year contract, we will start renegotiating
a year out. If it is a 5?year contract, depending on where they
are at 3 years in, they are doing gangbusters and that talent
really wants to, you know, up their minimum guarantee, then we
will certainly look at that. If, 3 years in of a 5?year contract,
we say, God, we really want this guy longer, we might negotiate at
that point too.
Q What is the typical term, or is there one?
A Three to 5 years.
And talent also receive a minimum guarantee. So basically,
their contract, the money is based on a minimum, but that is just,
“You are guaranteed to make this amount.” But they can
participate in revenue with no ceiling. So they can make
significantly more than what their downside guarantee is, and most
of them do. So I just wanted to explain that that is the money
that is negotiated. It is the minimum. There is no ceiling at
all on what they can make.
Q Okay. Are any of the talent employees, or are they all
independent contractors?
A They are all independent contractors.
Q And that covers the referees?
A Yes.
Q The producers?
A The producers are employees.
40
Q Okay. Because they are not talent. Okay.
We talked a little bit about, sort of, which talent are
promoted, and I have some other questions about that. What are
the characteristics, generally, that you look for in determining
which talent to promote? I understand you talked about sort of
the “it” factor. How do you make a determination about whether
somebody is ready to be pushed, to use Steve Austin’s term?
A Basically, it is when they start engaging the audience.
I mean, when somebody walks out and engages the audience, we know
we want to hire that person or we want to push that person or we
want to give them the ball, so to speak. Because that charisma,
that it factor is such a rare thing. That is why there is such a
small amount of main?event guys.
And it is unfortunate. We wish everybody had this kind of
charisma. I mean, The Rock had this engaging charisma. He is
Duane Johnson. He has done other movies now.
Q Sure.
A He is Duane “The Rock” Johnson.
Q I know The Rock.
A Yes, okay. But he has this just unbridled charisma, and
people just want to see him.
And so, really, I believe charisma is the biggest factor in
determining who gets the ball and who doesn’t.
Q And how often do you evaluate this? I mean, is it
constant? Is it ongoing?
41
A It is constant. We even have developmental talent come
up to our TVs, what we call “coming up.” Every week, different
talent rotate through. We will have a period of, you know, a few
months where we are evaluating a small number of talent,
developmental talent, and they wrestle before our television show.
So they get to wrestle in front of the live audience that night.
We are seeing how they handle the crowd, seeing what kind of
charisma they have, how they handle themselves in the ring. And,
you know, we can get a good feel for whether or not they are ready
to come up.
Q Uh?huh.
A We also have those talent on the live events with the
producers, who are, again, not necessarily grading them, but
looking at them and making certain determinations and helping them
along the way.
Look, you have this ?? we have a kid right now in our
developmental system who is doing an excellent job. He has this
charisma, and it is great. And we want him on TV so badly, but he
is just not ready yet. He just doesn’t quite have the total
package all together. But we have our eye on him.
Q Uh?huh.
A So he is honing his craft in the ring. Again, like I
said, you can’t throw a punch and have it wildly miss and, just
because you have great charisma, people are going to like you. I
mean, you have to still be at least decent in the ring.
42
So that is someone who has it that we are anxiously waiting
to get our hands on.
Q And who, again, is the “we” in “we have”?
A The Writing Department. And the producers are involved
in terms of the Creative, as well in terms of the wrestling
portion of it. And if they have other ideas, it is great. They
have been around the business a long time, and a lot of them know
what works and what doesn’t work fundamentally.
Q Do you meet as a group to talk about how a show went or
talk about how particular talent is doing?
A We do. Once we get to ?? I am sorry, were you done with
your question?
Q No, that is all right.
A Once we get to a show ?? like, say, Monday we are in
Huntsville, Alabama.
Q Okay.
A So we meet and we have what is called the producers
meeting. And we run through ?? the writers and Vince and myself,
John Laurinaitis, and Kevin Dunn, who is our executive producer,
we all meet with all of the producers, and we run through the
actual script of the show.
Q You do that on the road, or you do that locally?
A That is at the building we are going to be performing at
that night. It is a run?through of the show before we do the
show.
43
Q Uh?huh.
A And we basically work out the kinks. The producers will
talk about what they want to see in the match, who goes over ??
which means who wins ?? what the finish is ?? which is the same
thing ??
Q Okay.
A ?? and how we get there. We will discuss the pretapes
backstage. We discuss the promos that are the in the ring. The
promos are basically the in?ring monologues, where they might
involve other people. And we go through all the details of the
show.
And after the producers have said their piece and given their
feedback, then the writing team, Vince and Kevin and myself and
John, all meet. And we go through any questions that might have
arisen, what changes we want to make, if we want to put a graphic
in, if we don’t want to put a graphic in, if there are too many
graphics, if there is too much footage, if there is not enough
action, whatever. We look at the total picture as a whole and
make the necessary changes.
Q Okay. And what about after the match? Is there any
sort of ??
A There is. The producer meets with the talent after the
match. The producer who is responsible for that match meets with
the talent after the match and goes through what worked, what
didn’t work, what were you feeling out there, you know, all those
44
kinds of things ?? or congratulating them if they had a great
match.
Q Okay. When Creative is meeting collectively to talk
about, you know, which talent to promote, are there ever any
discussions about the use of steroids or prescription drugs or
illegal drugs? Do those topics ever play a role in the
discussions about who to promote and who not to promote?
A No. The only time that it is ever an issue is when the
writing team is notified by Talent Relations that a person is
suspended. We know we have to get that person off television.
Q How is the writing team notified of that?
A They are notified by me or by John Laurinaitis.
Q How do you learn that somebody is being suspended?
A Well, in my new role now, as the head of Talent
Relations, I am notified by Legal at the same time that John
Laurinaitis is.
Q Uh?huh.
A So I find out that a talent is suspended. And that
talent will either be suspended right that day, or if they are a
champion, say, and we have to get the title off of them, we have
to wait until the next TV, which is normally just a few days. It
is never more than a week to get that title off of that person.
Q What do you mean by that?
A So, say, we had an example when ??
Mr. McDevitt. Don’t use names on drug tests. Hypotheticals.
45
Ms. Levesque. Okay. Thank you.
So we had an example where someone was going to be suspended,
and they were a champion. And we found out I think it was on a
Wednesday. Well, our shows were done Monday and Tuesday. So now
we have this person we need to suspend for 30 days, but he has a
title. And so what we did is, the next TV that we had, we had
that person compete on TV so he could lose the title and then be
gone.
There is certain cases where we are forced to do that because
we are not professional sport; we are entertainment, and we have
to continue our storylines. Even though it is a major change in
direction for us, that is fine. But we at least have to get a
title off of somebody.
Q Okay. Because whoever has the title is going to
continue to compete in the story arc?
A Exactly. I mean, a lot of ?? and it is not only with
regards to the championship. That is just the best example I
could give to you, since I am not sure that you are a fan of the
product.
But when someone is involved in a major storyline, then, you
know, we have to end the storyline. So we have to have that ?? in
some cases, we have that person compete on the next available TV,
and then they are off TV after that.
The best?case scenario I can give you is when you have a
champion and you need to get the title off of them, because a lot
46
of our programs and stories are written around being a champion,
because, obviously, that is what everyone aspires to be.
Q Sure. Are there other scenarios where talent will
continue to perform even though there has been a suspension
imposed?
A There has been in the past, but where we are now, as of
November 1, we started making the names public of those wrestlers
who have been suspended. And since then, we are no longer having
them compete after they do whatever they need to do for TV, if
they need to do anything for TV.
Q And what about prior to November 1?
A Prior to November 1, we had I believe it was a few
different periods of time. When this new policy was implemented
in February ’06, originally ?? and, again, my facts might be a
little vague, but this is how I remember it.
Q Sure.
A Originally, talent were suspended, and, you know, again,
if they needed to be on TV the next day or the next week, then
they were, but never longer than a week’s time, and then they were
gone.
Then there was a period of time where we allowed talent to
work pay?per?views and TVs and not work live events. And they
still had their 30?day suspension in terms of their pay was still
suspended, but they were allowed to appear on TV at that time.
Q Uh?huh.
47
A Then we added live events, because we said, well, why
should the product suffer just because this one person screwed up?
Q Right.
A They won’t make any money. We would give them a per
diem so they could, you know, get food and what not, $200 a day,
which is minimal compared to what they could make if they were
working a live event. So they would, they worked the live event
and TVs and pay?per?views. We continued to use them as a talent,
but they just wouldn’t be getting paid.
Q Uh?huh.
A And then, most recently, we said, okay, well, once these
names become public, you know, we need to rechange our policy. We
need to make sure that, okay, they are not going to be on TV.
They might do the necessary program again the week after, but they
won’t be on TV now or pay?per?view or live events for the next
30 days.
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