Below is the third part of a transcript of an interview government officials conducted with Stephanie McMahon Levesque on Friday, December 14, 2007 largely regarding steroid use in World Wrestling Entertainment. McMahon also goes into great detail on the behind the scenes aspects of WWE.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q So, is the policy now, is it that ?? if they have a
positive test done and their name is going to be made public, and
let’s say they are a champion ??
A Right.
Q ?? you need to have them get rid of the title, do you
hold that name, have them make the appearance necessary to get rid
of the title, and then announce the suspension?
A I am not sure, because we haven’t had the situation yet.
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And it is something we need to determine. But we have not ?? I am
not sure.
Q So, in the past, can you give us a sense how many times
have wrestlers who have been suspended appeared on shows?
A It is not a large number of talent. And I am not sure
of the exact number. But I would say there is definitely a few.
Q And these involved cases where they were champions
who ??
A No, in that case, they were ?? in that case, it was any
talent that ?? during that time, when we said why should the
company be penalized for the actions of one person, during that
time we had the discretion of whomever we wanted to use. So it
was definitely more than one person. In that case, it was not a
champion, because we were continuing to use that person.
That being said, during that period of time, we were not
rewarding that person at all. They were not winning on TV. They
were in losing efforts. Because, certainly, you don’t want to
reward that kind of behavior. And, again, they were not getting
paid during that time.
Q Can you give us just a ballpark, I mean, how many times
this has happened?
A During that period of time when we did allow talent?
Q Yes.
A I would say, ballpark, five, maybe less.
Q Okay. And what was the longest or the most frequent,
49
for any individual talent, do you know what the longest period of
time or the most number of times they appeared during a suspension
was?
A Well, say, a suspension is 30 days and they appeared
every TV ??
Q Uh?huh.
A ?? I mean, that is at least four television appearances.
Q So were there cases where that happened?
A Yes, because we decided we were going to use them as we
normally would; they just wouldn’t get paid.
Q Okay. Did the talent have any concerns about this? Did
they come to you and say, “Listen, I understand I have done
something wrong, I am not going to be paid.” Did they complain
that they were being made to work without pay?
A Not at all.
Q Not one complaint?
A No. I think they were upset ?? again, I am
speculating ?? but I think the talent knew that they screwed up.
Mr. McDevitt. I assume you are asking of any complaints that
she knows of.
Mr. Cohen. Yeah.
Ms. Levesque. Right. Obviously, I can only speak to what I
know of.
Mr. Cohen. I would presume, as the individual in charge of
the talent, you would be a ??
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Ms. Levesque. I would imagine I would have heard.
Mr. Cohen. ?? natural avenue for complaints.
Ms. Levesque. Right.
BY MR. LEVISS:
Q Does the talent who wins an event make more than the
talent who loses?
A Not necessarily. But it can help build your character
to win.
Q Because you move on to the next match?
A Yes. I mean, and it depends on whether or not you are
in a building phase in your career or you are an established
person. If you are an established person ?? say, like Shawn
Michaels is an established superstar. He is over. He has been
around a long time. Whether or not he wins or loses doesn’t
really matter because the fans are just as engaged in him one way
or the other.
But if you are a performer that is in the middle of the card
and you either win or you lose, it can help build your character
to get you to that next level. For example, if you have been on a
losing effort, you are not going to be facing the champion any
time soon. You know, even though it is entertainment, we have to
build the facade of you win matches to face the champion.
Q Sure.
A So if, for example, a talent is suspended, and say we
were allowing them to wrestle on TV during that time but we had
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them in losing efforts, it was doing nothing to build their
character.
Q Okay. How do you decide whether to make a particular
talent win or lose an event you are scripting?
A It really depends all on the situation. And I would
have to give you unique examples.
Q Sure.
A But, you know, for example we had ?? say you had MVP
versus Shawn Michaels, who I said ?? Shawn Michaels is an
established person. It doesn’t really matter whether he wins or
loses.
Q Uh?huh.
A And we are trying to build MVP to face the champion. We
might have him beat Shawn Michaels, which is a huge victory over
an established guy. MVP, I should say, is a newer character.
Q Okay.
A He is someone we are trying to build. He is in the
middle of the card right now. We are hoping he is going to be a
main?event player. So we might have him beat a main?event player
to prove he belongs there. Give him the ball and see how he does.
He will either engage the crowd or he won’t engage the crowd. And
we will be able to see how he can perform, if he can perform at
that level. And if he does, great, then we have somebody else who
is in that top, upper echelon.
Q And is that main?event player likely to complain about
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the fact that you are writing in a loss for him?
A No. Most of our main?event talent understand how the
business works because they have been through it.
Q Sure.
Mr. Leviss. Okay. Maybe it is a good time to break.
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RPTS McKENZIE
DCMN MAYER
[10:23 a.m.]
BY MR. LEVISS:
Q Back in the previous round of questions, there was one
point where I was asking you about what wrestlers could make on,
you know, TV versus pay?per?view; and you gave me some rough
examples. And just so that our record is clear, you said “10 for
TV.” You, of course, didn’t mean $10?
A No, no, no. I’m sorry. I meant $10,000.
But again, that’s on the very high end. I’m really not
positive about these figures. After I said that, I was
second?guessing myself.
There is a large difference between what you would make on TV
and pay?per?view.
Q It could be as much as $10,000 to $50,000 to $100,000
for the pay?per?view?
A Yes.
Q I’m not going to hold you to those numbers.
A Right. Just roughly.
Q I didn’t want anyone to think $10.
A Yes.
Q We talked a little bit about sort of the “it” factor and
what makes a wrestler have it or not have it.
Is one component of that physical attributes?
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A How do you mean?
Q I mean how the wrestler looks, strength, things like
that.
A No, not necessarily. I mean we have a guy right now
that is a really big, fat, bloppy guy. I mean, that’s the only,
really, way to describe him; and I shouldn’t say his name now
because it’s going to be on record.
He is a spectacle. He is an attraction.
There are some attractions that we certainly look for in our
business. I mean, we have a giant, a giant colleague right now.
We have a midget ?? a little person, sorry.
And pretty much it’s just all different types. It’s just
really, you know, the specialness that they bring to the product.
Q Okay. Can you describe the typical champion right now,
if there is something typical?
A Well, there really isn’t much typical. I can describe
our three current champions.
Q Okay.
A Randy Orton is ?? you mean just physically describe him?
Q Sure. And their personality on screen.
A Well, clearly, the three have the “it” factor. They
have that unbridled charisma. They just have an ability to
connect with the audience.
Randy Orton plays a heel, he plays a bad guy; and he is the
most egotistical, arrogant, obnoxious person you could ever meet.
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Mr. McDevitt. You are ??
Mr. Leviss. I understand you are describing the character.
Mr. McDevitt. He may be that way.
Ms. Levesque. We are strictly talking about his character.
His character is that of the ladies, the gift to all ladies; and
he is the best there ever was in the ring. He’s young, he’s good
looking, he’s arrogant and that’s basically it. He is sort of a
tall, leaner body type.
Our champion on SmackDown right now, Batista, is also a
good?looking guy, and he is more of the ?? more of the bigger kind
of kick?your?ass?type guy. Excuse my language again.
Mr. Leviss. This is Congress. We can take it.
Ms. Levesque. I’m sure you have your own language.
So Batista is more of the kind of guy ?? while Randy Orton is
the kind of guy you want to pay to get his butt kicked, Batista is
the kind of guy you want to pay to see kick somebody’s butt. He
is a knock?your?block?off?type guy.
CM Punk, who is currently our ECW champion, I would say is
probably not your best?looking guy, but he has this straight?edge
character. His whole character is that he doesn’t do drugs, he’s
never touched alcohol, he’s never done anything. And he is more
of like a punk rock?type character, so he has the black hair and
it’s long; and he is a bit smaller ?? he’s not as tall as the
other two guys ?? and also a lean body type like Randy.
But that’s his gimmick, his character is this hard?core,
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straight?edge kind of guy.
Mr. Leviss. Okay. I get it.
BY MR. LEVISS:
Q Some witnesses have described to us that typical
wrestlers look different today than they did in the ’80s, for
example, that they’re more muscle bound today.
Is that a characterization that you would agree or disagree
with?
A Actually, I wouldn’t agree with that personally. If you
look at some of the characters from the ’80s, there were tons of
muscle?bound guys, probably just as many as there are today, if
not less today. I don’t think in the ’80s that you would have
seen Rey Mysterio necessarily, because it seemed like ?? it was
almost the guys were maybe even a little bigger in the ’80s.
Q Uh?huh. Why do you think that is?
A I don’t know. This is just my memory as a child you
know watching and maybe everybody seemed larger than life to me
then.
Q Uh?huh.
A But ?? so I can’t really answer.
Q Do you have any opinion why about why they might have
been bigger in the ’80s than now?
A No.
Mr. McDevitt. First of all, it’s not even a fact that they
were. If you are asking for an opinion as to something that is
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not even a fact.
BY MR. LEVISS:
Q It’s your perception. Do you have any opinion about why
that appeared to you that way?
A No. Again, maybe I was just a little kid, you know,
watching; and everybody just seemed, you know, larger than life.
It’s the only, really, guess I can make.
Q Have you had any discussions at WWE with people about
wrestlers today versus the ’80s, specifically with reference to
physical attributes, how big the wrestlers are?
A No.
Q Okay.
Mr. McDevitt. Hang on for just 1 minute.
Ms. Levesque. Yes. We did do a study which is the average
weight of the roster right now ?? not compared to the ’80s, but
the average weight ?? gosh, and again I will have to get you the
hard data ?? but we were actually surprised; the average weight
was far lower than what the average weight for an NFL player was.
It was in the ?? I think the high 100s, like 195 pounds or
something like that.
It might have been slightly above that, you know; don’t hold
me to the specific number. But it was a dramatic difference
between that of the NFL, which actually surprised me. But it just
goes to show all the various body types that we really do have.
BY MR. LEVISS:
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Q Why did it surprise you?
A Just because I thought our guys were bigger than that.
You know, I mean ?? but they’re just not on the whole. The
majority is ?? there’s a lot of different kinds of bodies.
Q When did you do this study or assessment or whatever?
A That was this year.
Q Uh?huh. What prompted that?
A Pretty much just fact finding about our talent. Just we
wanted to understand more about, you know, our talent as a whole;
and that’s when we did this study where I mentioned before about
the ?? you know, the Courier spam, which I couldn’t remember the
date off the top of my head. But it’s just a more comprehensive
look at our talent.
Q Were there other issues considered in the study?
A No. I mean ?? and a lot of this came about as a result
of Chris Benoit. Chris is such a tragedy, but he did force us to
look at our business in a different way. You know, our talent;
you know, what are talent doing? How many of them have health
insurance? How many of them have financial planning?
We really want to engage our talent and to be doing the best
that we can for our talent. So Chris Benoit, while a tragedy, I
think has helped in some ways because it’s helped us look at our
talent and how can we treat them better.
Q Whose idea was it to do this study?
A It was a collaborative idea ?? I mean, Vince, Linda,
59
Jerry, I think, myself, John Laurinaitis. It was really a
collective sort of feeling.
Mr. Cohen. Who received a copy?
Ms. Levesque. Pretty much the people I just named.
BY MR. LEVISS:
Q Who conducted the study?
A It was pretty much John Laurinaitis in terms of just
facts, data. It wasn’t ?? you know, if we were asking a talent a
question, then that was obviously through Talent Relations as
well, but it was done through John Laurinaitis.
Q And did he have a questionnaire?
A No. Well, we had ?? for example, if we’re looking at
how many talent have worked ?? you know, “worked” is again another
parlance, but how many days they actually performed. You know, we
have records of that because we know when they were booked and
when they weren’t booked. So that’s hard data that we just
accessed and put together.
Average weights: We, you know, took everybody’s weight. We
always do take everybody’s weight, but we took it again to get the
most accurate weight, and we pretty much update annually, anyway,
maybe biennially.
Q Did he interview them at all?
A No. But there was no ?? well, I shouldn’t say “no.”
If you have a specific question, I can tell you if he had
specifically asked that question of talent. One time we did
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specifically ask questions of talent, if they had health insurance
or not.
Q Okay. You’d mentioned financial planning, health
insurance.
A Yes. Those were the two questions that we asked. I
think those were the only two off the top of my head.
Q Was the focus exclusively on current talent? Did you
look at talent previously associated with WWE as well?
A We did look at talent previously associated with WWE and
what we looked at is, how can we help talent who may or may not
have a drug issue.
Q Uh?huh.
A And what we did is, we implemented a policy where any
talent that previously worked for WWE who was, you know, a
regularly scheduled performer ?? because there’s some guys who
came through for a cup of coffee, showed up one day and did
something; we have to draw the line somewhere ?? that we would pay
for drug and alcohol treatment, should it be necessary for them.
Q That’s the letter you sent out to, I don’t know, 500 or
so performers?
A Yes. Because, you know, we tried to look at a way of,
okay, how can we help? What can we do as a company? And that was
the best thing that we could think to do.
Q Okay. Are there other changes or policies that you made
in response to what you learned from the study?
61
A There weren’t really many changes to be made, other than
we’re going to be having more educational seminars with the talent
to keep them more informed.
We were actually over half ?? I believe it’s actually over
60 percent have health insurance and have financial planning. But
we’re still going to be doing more educational seminars to help
talent, you know, realize that it is of vital importance. We’re
looking at, you know, a number of different seminars that we could
include to have talent be better prepared for the life of
professional wrestling which is an unusual life.
Q Sure.
A Because it’s on the road so much. There is no off
season.
Q What’s the typical retirement age, for lack of a better
term, for a professional wrestler?
A You know, that was something else we found out in this
data. And I cannot accurately say because, you know, the person
who keeps coming up in my head is Ric Flair, who is 54 years old.
But there is an average and it’s ?? gosh, I just don’t want
to say. I don’t want to misspeak. But I can get you the data so
that you have the accurate numbers.
[The information follows:]
******** COMMITTEE INSERT ********
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Q Okay.
Are you able to generalize about what talent typically does
at the end of a wrestling career, what they move on to?
A I really can’t. I don’t know what people do when they
move on.
Q So that’s not something that was considered in the
study?
A No.
You know, talking to talent on their way out, part of an exit
strategy is part of the seminar that we were thinking is that ??
you know, basically a life skills?type seminar is one of the
things we talk about, which includes life after wrestling because
not everybody’s going to make it.
But in terms of what talent do afterwards, I’m not sure. I
mean, I know a handful of cases, but not well enough to speak on
an average.
Q How much daily contact do you have with the talent?
A At TV I have tons of contact. So every week, every
Monday and every Tuesday.
Q And otherwise?
A And otherwise the random phone call here or there. I’m
not involved as much directly with contacting the talent as my
lead writers or ?? for Creative, or John Laurinaitis may be for
Appearances.
63
Q I guess ?? of the pool of talent who are currently
associated with WWE, what portion of them are in active
circulation, performing regularly?
A Of the ?? of our current roster?
Q Uh?huh.
A Well, not including the Developmental ?? let me just
make sure you are asking a specific question, Developmental aside,
because Developmental has their own shows that they do.
Q Okay.
A But you are talking about performers regularly
performing on Raw, SmackDown and ECW that are part of the roster?
Q What is Developmental?
A Developmental is our Developmental Territories. We
currently have two where we’re trying to basically groom the next
crop of WWE superstars. They’re independently owned.
Q Okay.
A But we do have some employees stationed there. They are
affiliated with us.
Q Do they have their own names?
A Yes. OVW is one, Ohio Valley Wrestling and Florida
Championship Wrestling is the other. One is in Ohio and one is in
Florida.
Q And these are like the farm teams?
A Yes, basically.
Actually, I said it’s in Ohio, but it’s not; it’s in
64
Lexington, Kentucky.
Q OVW is in Kentucky?
A Yeah. Don’t ask. I didn’t come up with the name. But
Kentucky Wrestling ?? I’m just kidding.
Q Okay. So Developmental has its own schedule and you are
not involved in marketing or ??
A No, I’m not involved in the marketing or booking of
those talents. They are booked, and it’s ?? actually the way that
the owner makes his money is by the shows that he runs with those
territories. And it’s great because the talent get the experience
of working in front of a crowd.
Q Sure.
A You know, and they get that feedback of how the crowd’s
going to react to them. But it’s on a much smaller level.
They’re allowed to screw up. They can try different characters,
and it doesn’t impact once they’re on television.
Q How do people get brought up from Developmental?
A We have people basically watching all the time, and we
send producers down to evaluate; and as well, the writers go down
and give their opinions, probably on a quarterly basis. And in
addition we have a liaison between the Writing staff and the
Developmental systems, who goes once a month, right now as it
stands.
And so we have constant feedback on who is doing well, who we
have our eye on.
65
Then the next step is those three to four talents who we
think are going to make it, that’s when we start putting them on
the live events and coming and wrestling before the TVs, as I was
explaining before.
Q So what role, if any, do you play in bringing talent
from Developmental to ??
A I basically make sure it’s happening.
Q Okay.
A And if people are slacking or not giving their feedback,
you know, that’s ?? my job is to make sure ?? okay, guys, who’s
the next person here?
You know, we’ve got to make sure that we’re bringing them up.
And, really, I’m more in charge of making it happen.
Q So will someone make a recommendation to you about the
next three or four people?
A Oh, absolutely. We actually take collective feedback.
And it is a decision by John Laurinaitis and I of who actually
does come up to work those live events prior to the television
taping.
Q Will you go watch that person or those people perform?
A I try my best. It’s very busy at TV. But I do try my
best, and I always assign somebody to be watching to make sure we
get the feedback. And then typically we discuss it the next day
in a meeting with Vince, because it’s most important for Vince,
for Mr. McMahon, to hear the feedback.
66
Q And so does he play a role then in the decision to bring
someone up from Developmental?
A No. That’s strictly John and I.
Q I was asking you about sort of ??
A He could. Obviously, if he saw someone and said bring
him, he’s brought.
Q Okay.
I was asking you initially about your sort of day?to?day
contact with talent. Putting Developmental aside for the rest of
the talent, how much contact do you have with them? And ?? well,
why don’t we start with that one?
A Okay. For the most part, I see them all every Monday
and Tuesday or if there’s a pay?per?view I see them on Sunday,
those who are performing, those who are there.
Q Right.
A And you know, I pretty much see everybody. Whether or
not I engage in a conversation really depends on what my
responsibilities are of the day, because also at Television, I not
only have my role as a TV, but I’m also a director/producer, and I
work on the backstage vignettes. I work on some of the dialogue
with the talent and, as well, I feed the commentators.
Q Uh?huh.
A So I have multiple responsibilities at TV.
So that’s why I say, it depends on how much time I have to
interact with the talent and whether or not I’m working with them
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that night. If I have a pretape that I’m producing, pretape being
one of the backstage scenes that you would see in our show ?? it’s
either live or pretaped; that’s why it’s called pretaped ?? then
obviously I have more interaction with those talent because I’m
working directly with them.
Q Sure.
How many people are we talking about in terms of talents who
are actively performing?
A I would say probably around 30.
Q Okay.
A Each ?? every Monday and every Tuesday.
Q And how many talent are there who are currently
affiliated with WWE?
A Excluding or including Developmental?
Q Excluding.
A I would say about 150 total.
Q So roughly 30 out of the 150 are performing any given
week?
A No. Thirty would be for the Monday night and then there
would be more, probably more like 50 on the Tuesday night, because
it’s the two different shows.
Q Okay.
A And again it’s very rough. But ??
Mr. Cohen. If they’re not performing, do they have to show
up at the arena or event?
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Ms. Levesque. Yes. Because we’re not sure if we’re going to
need them or not. Because, again, a lot of times if a performer
is not wrestling in a match, we still try to get them on the show
so they have some exposure. So we might have them in a
conversation backstage in a pretape before someone else walks into
the scene, just to get them some exposure on the show.
The more exposure you have, obviously the better.
Mr. Cohen. Okay.
BY MR. LEVISS:
Q Do all talent in ECW, Raw or SmackDown come through one
of the two Developmental?
A I’m sorry. Let me go back one second to answer your
question.
We don’t bring everybody on the roster to TV every time. We
know who we want to use primarily, so there is a list that ?? the
writers are in communication with Talent Relations at a lower
level than Johnny and I, and that’s basically how we establish who
we bring to TV and who we don’t.
So it’s not like there are tons of guys sitting around
twiddling their thumbs, just to be clear.
Q I was asking if Developmental is the only way to get to
ECW, Raw or SmackDown?
A For the most part because ?? there’s also what’s called
independent shows. And well ?? I mean, so at any rate when
someone is on an independent show, and say they catch our eye, we
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will hire them to our Developmental system. That’s actually how
CM Punk came to us.
Q Is an independent show affiliated with WWE?
A No, not affiliated at all.
So there are some of these smaller shows, but they’re not
nearly territories like they were, as I was describing before.
But there are independent circuits, and they run much smaller
shows; they still wrestle in the high school gyms or, you know, in
the smaller venues that you might remember, growing up.
Q Sure.
A So they still have those independent shows. And as
well, there is still another competitor out there as well, too, on
a much smaller scale. They’re called TNA. There haven’t been any
examples yet, but we would be open to having a talent come to our
show from TNA. And if they were ready, they would probably not go
through the Developmental system, they would probably come right
in.
Q And how does talent like that come to your attention?
A Well, we have scouts, you know; and we certainly have
people who watch their programming. And you know contractually
you are not allowed to contact a talent until they’re ?? and I’m
not sure of the legal specifics of it, but ?? you know, until
their contract is up, but we might have people we have our eye on.
Q Uh?huh.
Are the scouts full?time employees of WWE?
70
A Yes. There’s no scout person. It’s different people
that are employees that we would have scout, and they’re in the
Talent Relations Department.
Q All right. Is that something you ever do?
A No.
Q Is it something you have done in the past?
A No. I have watched different shows and said, ooh, hey,
that person’s interesting before. But I wish I had the time to do
that; I just don’t.
Q Do you interact at all with the scouts?
A Not normally on a personal level, but I might.
Q Uh?huh.
A But pretty much it’s all through John, because they
report to John.
Q And is John the one who instructs them and receives
reports back from them?
A Yes. And I’m normally copied on the reports. If
there’s anyone of interest, I’m definitely copied, I’m kept
informed.
And I might give a direction, you know, if I feel like
there’s someone I have heard about a lot from all different
sources. You know, where are we on this guy? You know, are we
available to bring him?
Q Do you know how John instructs them, you know, what sort
of information he gives them about what WWE is looking for?
71
A Well, it’s pretty much all the same mantra. It’s, who
is the crowd responding to? And if there’s somebody, even if
they’re lower on the card, but if the crowd is going nuts for
them, they’ve got it, you know, and so we want it.
Q Sure.
Are you ever in a situation where you are more specific about
recruiting, you know, you would instruct a scout, Gee, we really
need somebody who’s kind of tall to fill a particular need or ??
A I’m trying to think of a specific case.
Not that I can think of.
Q Okay.
A Because it’d all depend on the story. Like, for
example, The Great Collie, we don’t necessarily put him against a
big guy ?? you might want to tell the underdog stories ?? you put
him against a smaller guy, you know.
And quite often big guy matches, big guy versus big guy,
aren’t good anyway. They’re typically not technically very good
to watch.
Q Uh?huh.
A Because sometimes it’s lumbering, and it just doesn’t
look like ?? but that’s ?? I’m getting away, beside the point.
So at any rate I can’t think of a specific case where we
said, oh, let’s hire a big guy, or, oh, we need a small guy or we
need ?? at some time we have said, we need more ethnicity in our
show, so we may have had more of an eye towards a minority.
72
That’s certainly something that we’ve looked at.
Q Are scouts given any instructions to inquire about
steroid use or illegal drug use?
A No. And typically the scouts are not speaking with
these talent. They’re just observing the talent.
Q All right.
Do they ever speak with folks in the audience to gauge their
reaction?
A Yes. But again there’s no specific protocol for a
scout.
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