Below is the fifth part of a transcript of an interview government officials conducted with Stephanie McMahon Levesque on Friday, December 14, 2007 largely regarding steroid use in World Wrestling Entertainment. McMahon also goes into great detail on the behind the scenes aspects of WWE.
Q Okay.
Now, again, this last change allows that they may appear in
one event ?? after the suspension is announced, they may appear at
one event to clean up a storyline?
A Again, it’s not anything that is that cut and dried or
that black and white.
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But, yes, it would be ?? just talking amongst ourselves, it
would be that the next available opportunity to end that
storyline, which at the most is only a week, because once we find
out, we have to do something on that next pay?per?view or that
next television, and we have weekly television and pay?per?view
events. So it’s easy for us to make a change, but we do need to
creatively segue somehow because we are an entertainment company,
not a sports company.
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RPTS JOHNSON
DCMN SECKMAN
[11:24 p.m.]
Q Okay. I want to clarify something. I had asked this
before, and I am still a little bit confused. Is there a scenario
where a wrestler tests positive, talent tests positive, is
formally suspended, but before the announcement is made that that
individual is suspended, they make an appearance?
A We have not come across this yet. So we are not sure.
Q Okay.
A Or I am not sure, I should say. I am not sure how we
are going to handle it.
Q Okay.
A Since November 1st, we have had two suspensions.
Neither one were involved in a major story line. They were
immediately suspended, and their names were released.
Q Okay.
A So we do need to make a determination on this point.
But as far as I know, we haven’t crossed that bridge yet.
Q Okay. So you are still trying to figure out how to
apply this policy?
A Yes.
Mr. McDevitt. You mean, the new public disclosure part of
it.
Mr. Cohen. Public disclosure and the appearance of
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wrestlers ??
Ms. McMahon. Once.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Let me ask the question again.
A Okay.
Q You are still trying to determine how the application of
the new public disclosure policy and the decision to limit
appearances for wrestlers who test positive will ?? you are trying
to determine how those policies will be applied? Is it fair to
say it is still up in the air?
A Does that make sense to you?
Mr. McDevitt. I know what you are asking. I think she has
answered it. There are only two times it has happened, Brian.
What happens in the future, it would be speculation at this point,
but I think the essence of what you are asking is, yes.
Mr. Cohen. Okay.
Mr. McDevitt. Still trying to figure some of those things
out.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q Have you discussed the suspension itself being a script
segue?
A No. We don’t like to make it public in terms of a
script. It is not part of a story line. It is what it is. We
make it public. But it is not a part of a story line. We don’t
want to draw attention to that in a story line because that is not
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what fans care about. They are involved in the personal
relationship that we have built, hopefully, if we have done our
jobs, between these two men or women. And we don’t want to bring
a real life element into it that might not make sense creatively.
Q So when a wrestler is suspended, are they still
discussed on the show?
A Not really. There might be a circumstance, again, this
has not happened yet, but I could see a circumstance where they
were, you know, a DVD was being released that they were a part of.
We certainly would still promote that DVD. But the talent is ??
once we make the decision that they are not going to be on
television, they are not on television.
Q And would you explain away their nonappearance on
television as anything other than a suspension?
A We typically don’t explain it.
Q Okay.
A We just move on. And I think our fans are smart enough
to know, without us ?? we just move on and go to a different story
line to engage them otherwise.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Are you familiar with the results of the testing program
that has been in place since early 2006?
A I am aware of I would say the majority of the results
now.
Q Okay.
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A But, you know, since I have been in charge of talent
relations, I am aware of the results.
Q Okay. Are you familiar ?? information provided to the
committee by WWE indicated that on the first round of baseline
testing ??
A Uh?huh.
Q ?? under the plan, 75 wrestlers tested positive for
steroids or illegal drugs. When you found out about that, about
40 percent of the talent that was tested, when you found about
that, were you surprised?
A I didn’t find out about that until just recently. And
yes, I was surprised.
EXAMINATION
BY MS. SACHSMAN:
Q Why were you surprised?
A Because it seemed like a large number to me of people
who were using illegal substances.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Did you take any additional action or did you recommend
any additional action after finding out about those 75 positives?
A I wasn’t in a position to take action. I knew the
wellness policy was being implemented and that the first round of
tests would, you know, have punitive repercussions for those who
were continuing to use whatever substance.
Q Okay.
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A But again, I wasn’t made aware of that information at
that time.
Q Okay.
A I learned about it later.
Q When did you learn about it specifically?
A I am not sure, but at some point after the fact.
Q Okay. Can you nail it down a little bit tighter?
A Probably not until, you know, after Benoit passed. So
it wouldn’t have been my place to say, hey, obviously something
needs to be done. But ?? it is purely speculative at this point,
but I don’t think I would have because something was being done.
And that first round of tests, you know, there were suspensions
for people who clearly did continue to have things in their
systems.
Q The application of the current policy now, can you
describe to us your relations with Dr. Black? Do you have ??
A I have met Dr. Black.
Q Uh?huh.
A He was wearing a Santa Claus tie in June. So he made an
impact on me. But that is pretty much it. He came in for one
meeting that I was a part of where we were discussing the wellness
policy and improvements we could make, et cetera. But I was
not ?? that is really my only involvement with Dr. Black.
Q Okay. And do you ever ?? do you have communications
with him regarding the policy on an ongoing basis in your current
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position?
A No.
Q Okay. When a wrestler tests positive for a prohibited
substance how do you find out about this positive test.
Mr. McDevitt. Can I just ask, when you say, mean tests
positive, you mean after he does all his work and declares it to
be a positive?
Mr. Cohen. Correct.
BY MR. COHEN:
A Okay. Once ?? the WWE is notified through our head
counsel, Ed Kaufman. And Ed notifies myself and John Laurinaitis
and Vince.
Q Okay. Jerry, you made the distinction there between
being informed of a positive test and being informed after ?? of
Dr. Black’s recommendation after he has gone through his process
after an initial positive test. He consults with the wrestlers.
He then makes a formal determination about whether a suspension is
warranted. And our understanding is that ?? once he makes that
decision, that is passed on to Ed Kaufman, and that is when you
find out about it?
A As far as I understand, yes.
Q Okay. In a case where a wrestler has a positive test
but is either given a warning or receives a medical use exemption
for a particular drug, are you informed of that result?
A I am not informed unless it is a ?? unless there are
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punitive actions to be taken.
Q Okay.
A If that answers your question.
Q I think that answers my question.
A Okay.
Q Would a warning be considered a punitive action?
A I was not aware we gave warnings. So I have never heard
of a warning.
Q Okay. There were ?? you are not familiar with any
wrestlers who have tested positive through Dr. Black’s tests and
received warnings from WWE rather than being suspended?
Mr. McDevitt. When you say warnings from WWE, did you mean
to say warnings from Dr. Black?
Mr. Cohen. Yes, that is right.
Mr. McDevitt. All right. I mean, that is an important
distinction.
Mr. Cohen. It is an important distinction.
Mr. McDevitt. Right.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Are you familiar at all with cases where wrestlers had
received warnings from Dr. Black but have not been suspended or
otherwise penalized by WWE?
A I was really not aware that we or that Dr. Black ever
issued warnings.
Q Okay.
105
A I am actually very interested, because I have never
heard that before.
Q Okay. I am just going to ask specifically, and I don’t
mean to badger on this point, there was a specific case that Dr.
Black informed us about where he and Vince McMahon had a
disagreement about whether a wrestler should be suspended or had
been given warnings. Are you aware of any such incidents between
Dr. Black and Vince McMahon?
A I am aware they had a conversation, but I was not a
witness to that conversation, so I do not know what was discussed.
Q Okay. How did you become aware that they had a
conversation?
A Just I was aware from a conversation I had with my dad.
I mean, it was a personal conversation. That is why I referred to
him as my dad, and he just made some comment about speaking to Dr.
Black today.
Q Okay. And he ??
A To the best of my recollection. I mean, I believe this
was a while ago.
Q He didn’t note any disagreement that he may have had
with Dr. Black or indicated that the issue was whether a wrestler
should or should not be suspended?
A Not that I can recall specifically.
Q Okay.
A What I am aware of is, since I became in my position of
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talent relations, that we have a hard and fast policy that if
someone tests positive, they are suspended for 30 days at the
first offense, 60 days for the second offense, and they are
terminated for A third offense.
Q Okay.
A I was never aware of any warnings.
Q We are going to move onto one more topic ?? actually, I
may have a wrap?up topic after this, but the next topic is going
to be on other safety issues. But I just wanted to see if you had
any questions.
Ms. Safavian. No, we are good.
Mr. Cohen. One last question on this topic.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q The decision to announce publicly that wrestlers were to
be suspended for positive tests, was there any disagreement that
you are aware of within the organization about making those
suspensions public?
A That I am aware of, no. We discussed it.
Q Uh?huh.
A We questioned the ?? how it would affect the performers.
Q Uh?huh.
A And that is why we made the decision to say that they
were being suspended in violation of the policy but without saying
what they were violating specifically.
Q Okay.
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A We were trying to protect the integrity of the
performers, but at the same time letting the performers, as well
as the rest of the world, know this is for real and it will be
made public, in an effort to hopefully further deter use.
Q Okay. And there was no disagreement being created by
that decision?
A No.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q What about the decision to not have performers appear on
shows that went along with that decision?
A What about that decision?
Q Was there any disagreement with that decision to not
have performers appear?
A No.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Other safety issues, ringside safety.
A Uh?huh.
Q We understand that WWE ?? in your role as director of
talent, are you responsible for WWE referees as well?
A My department is, yes. In my role as the head of talent
relations, yes, referees report to us.
Q Okay.
A They actually have ?? some of them have a dual reporting
structure, because some of them are a part of event operations,
they are part of what is called ring crew, and they set up and
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tear down the ring. And it is actually paid ?? they are paid
through two different departments, which is very odd, and it is
something I am looking into since I took over, but that is the way
it is right now.
Q Okay. We understand that WWE referees, they are not
like major league baseball umpires or NFL referees. They are
there to be part of the show. They are not impartial judges.
Mr. McDevitt. Might be like NBA referees.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Nor are they there to assure fairness. But ??
A But they are there to give the impression that that is
what they are there to do.
Q Indeed, it does seem to us, though, and maybe you can
offer some input here, do referees play any role in matches? Do
they help wrestlers communicate with each other? Do they
communicate with other talent outside the ring? Can you talk with
us about the role of the referee?
A The role of the referee, from a fan perspective, is
absolutely to maintain the integrity of a match.
Q Uh?huh.
A No closed fist punches, no holds for more than
5 seconds, you know, that kind of thing.
Behind the scenes, the referee is very much involved in
communication between talent. If, you know, say I want Jerry to
come ?? I am on the outside of the ring. I have been thrown
109
outside the ring. I am pretending that, you know, my back is
hurting me, and I want Jerry to come dive on me. I might tell the
referee, tell Jerry to come dive on me. You know, and the referee
will go in the ring and tell Jerry. And sure enough, Jerry will
come dive on me.
Mr. McDevitt. Better explain how that happens.
Ms. McMahon. Okay. The referee has an IFB, which is a
hearing device. And the referee is wired to what is called
guerilla position. Guerilla position, I know it is difficult,
guerilla position is basically the last bastion of communication
from when a talent walks through the curtain and goes down the
ramp or out the entranceway, whichever we have with that
particular set. So we tell people, you know, you have 8 minutes.
You are timed, because we are live. We are in a scripted show.
You have a certain amount of time. You are 8 minutes. You don’t
have your pyro; it is your short entrance, go. You know, and they
go, and they understand everything I just said. And then the
referee, however, does still have communication with the people at
that position, at that entry point, that are hidden from the
camera. So the referee, for example, if they need to cut the
match short, we can tell the referee, Cut the match short. If it
looks as though someone is hurt, we ask, Is so and so okay? The
referee goes over ?? and this is, you know, very inside ?? but the
referee goes over and either asks the performer verbally, are you
okay, and he will either get a response; or if someone’s
110
unconscious, you know, clearly he will end the match. If a person
is okay, he gives a signal. And if a person is not okay, he gives
a signal. And he doesn’t have to be asked, is someone okay? Just
I am using that as an example. The referee on his own if
something happens will go and check a performer. Because we know
in our business what is meant to happen and what isn’t meant to
happen. So, you know, we know when something doesn’t look right,
to check on them.
Q Do your wrestlers, do they receive any training ?? I am
sorry, do your referees receive any training?
A Yes.
Q Do they receive any medical training?
A The referees do not receive medical training, no.
Q Okay.
A We have EMTs, as well as local doctors all on?site.
Q Okay. And you indicated that your referees do have
authority to end the match?
A Yes.
Q Due to injury, they can call the match?
A Absolutely.
Q Has this happened, to your knowledge? Have referees
ended matches early because of injury?
A I can’t think of an instance off the top of my head, but
I am sure that there are.
Q Okay. What about ringside doctors? Can you discuss
111
your ringside doctors and the role ?? how you choose them and what
role they play?
A Currently, we have local doctors. And they are with the
EMTs watching the show.
Q Okay.
A They also have a walkie?talkie for communication. And I
am not sure, I don’t believe they have an IFB. But they do have
the walkie?talkie.
Q And those are local doctors?
A Local doctors at the buildings currently.
Q Uh?huh.
A We are actually in the process of looking for a more
comprehensive, sports?type doctor.
Q Okay.
A But so these local doctors are at the triage, which is
right outside the guerilla position. Should, God forbid,
something happen, we want to make sure we have a station right
there, so they don’t have to be walked to a back stage area, which
did happen in the past before we instituted this triage. So you
know, we learned as we go. So the doctors are at this triage.
And should something happen, the doctor and the EMTs run out.
Q Okay.
A Should the doctor for some reason miss it, we are
calling for the doctor at the same time, and the doctor has the
ability to call the match as well.
112
Q They do. Okay.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q How do they communicate with guerilla position?
A They have walkie?talkies. That is how they communicate
with guerilla. And should they not work, they are right next to
guerilla, so they just run out.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q Okay. Is there a way for these ringside doctors to
communicate with WWE management regarding injuries?
A Absolutely.
Q How does that process occur?
A Well, can you be more specific with your question?
Because there are a number of different scenarios.
Q Yeah. Let us say, the scenario ?? I mean, obviously, if
a wrestler has a broken leg, that is going to be a very obvious
injury. A scenario where a referee has a concern about ?? I am
sorry, a doctor has a concern about a more chronic injury.
A During the day?
Q During the day prior to the match.
A Prior to the show?
Q Or after a show. For example, if a wrestler receives a
concussion and is walking around on their feet, but the doctor has
reason to believe that there may be some longer?term effect. Do
they have the ability to communicate with WWE management?
A Absolutely, they are required to communicate any such
113
injury or concern. They are required. They are mandated to let
John Laurinaitis know, and in John’s absence, me, and in my
absence, Vince.
Q They are mandated by their contractual agreement with
WWE?
A Absolutely. And you know, I am not sure exactly the
language, but that is definitely verbally reinforced. And I am
pretty positive it is in the writing. I just don’t have the
document in front of me.
Q Okay. And do they ever provide recommendations? Do
they say listen, this individual has ?? this particular injury, he
ought not to wrestle for a week or 2 weeks; he needs to be off his
feet? Do they provide those kind of recommendations?
A They are not treating physicians. So they might say ??
and I can think of an example recently where somebody didn’t seem
to be feeling right, and they were very concerned and brought it
up to management and said we would like to send him to the
hospital. Management said fine. So this person went to the
hospital, wound up he had appendicitis and had to have his
appendix removed. So, clearly, that was a case where a doctor was
concerned and took action with management. I say not a treating
physician because the local doctor might say, you know, this
person is complaining about a knee injury; I think they should
follow up with their treating physician, maybe have an MRI to make
sure there is nothing going on. Because they are not their
114
full?time regular doctor. So they don’t have a great knowledge of
the talent’s medical history as it were. But they certainly make
references to their treating physicians. And then it is up to
management to follow up and make sure that that is happening.
Q Okay. Have ringside doctors or treating physicians ever
diagnosed a wrestler with a concussion and reported this to WWE?
A That I am aware of, no. There was a doctor who issued a
warning to us, you know, that this person could develop a
concussion but currently didn’t have signs of it, and that person
never wound up developing one.
Q Okay. Are you aware of any times where wrestlers have I
guess self?reported ?? where wrestlers have self?reported to you
that they received concussions and this information came from the
wrestler rather than a treating doctor?
A Not that I am aware of, but I am not saying that that
never happened.
Q Right.
A Just not involved me.
Q Okay. All right. Are you aware of any incident where a
wrestler in a match received a concussion?
A No.
Q Does WWE have a policy for time off if talent suffers a
concussion?
A Yes. We go with the recommendation of the treating
physician.
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Q Okay. How about in cases where talent has suffered
multiple concussions?
A Well, in the case ?? the only case I can think of, this
person was ?? actually, I think he is still under contract to us.
And he suffered a number of concussions and has wound up, I think,
forming a foundation to look into concussions. But clearly he no
longer performed for us. We are not going to put anybody in
danger.
Q Okay. You have indicated that you are not aware of a
case where a wrestler has received a concussion. Do you believe
that WWE wrestlers are at risk for concussions because of the
nature of their work?
A I think, under certain circumstances, yes.
Q Can you describe those circumstances?
A Well, inherently any move can be done incorrectly. You
really are giving your life to the person that you are in the ring
with. It is much more than guys just punching each other. Every
move, even a simple body slam could go wrong, and you could land
on your head. That, in and of itself, is very, you know, it is a
very skilled move to do. You wouldn’t think it just watching it,
but it is. So, I mean, I would think if anything went wrong,
certainly you would be at risk for concussion.
Q Would a chair shot to the head or a pile driver on an
unpadded surface, would those present concussion risks?
A Not ?? I mean, a pile driver, no, because your head
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never actually hits. And a chair shot, there is a particular way
to hit someone with a chair. And again, if you screwed up and hit
someone wrong, then sure. Or if you slipped on a pile driver and
let somebody go, absolutely.
Q Okay.
A But the moves as they are supposed to be performed, I
would say, no.
Q Okay.
A And mistakes do happen, certainly, as in life.
Q So if you had an unskilled wrestler and there was some
concern that ?? you have described, I think, Hulk Hogan as not a
very good wrestler.
A Right. Which I didn’t really realize I was on the
record and wasn’t thinking about that. But yes, he ??
Q I want the record to reflect that was your description.
A Correct.
Mr. McDevitt. Technical performer.
Ms. McMahon. Terrific performer, charisma oozing out of
everywhere, just not a great technical wrestler.
BY MR. COHEN:
Q A scenario where you had a wrestler who was not a great
technical wrestler, and you are concerned about perhaps the
protection of the other wrestler in the ring with that individual,
are you in a position to script the moves of that match to protect
a wrestler?
117
A We would never put anybody in a ring that didn’t know
what they were doing fundamentally. When I said Hulk Hogan wasn’t
a great wrestler, I didn’t mean he didn’t know how to do the
moves, the move technically. He just had three moves. And that
is all he did. That is what I meant. It wasn’t an exciting,
technical display of reversing holds and, you know, multiple
different maneuvers. It was a very basic match. Psychologically,
it worked every time. The crowd got behind Hulk. But he was
skilled in how to perform those moves. We would never put anybody
in the ring who was an unskilled wrestler to the point where we
were concerned about the safety of those in the ring. We wouldn’t
put anybody in jeopardy that way.
Mr. Cohen. Okay.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q Do you track concussions?
A We have medical notes that are provided to Dr. Ray, who
is third?party. And all the medical notes come from the doctors
that we work with. And so certainly there is a listing of
everything. And I am not sure to the point where we have ?? we
have asked, have there been concussions documented? And we were
told no. To my recollection, I was told no, because I asked
specifically the question. And I know that going forward ?? so
there was no documentation of concussions, at least at the point
of which I asked.
Q When was this that you asked?
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A This was recently, since Benoit and since Michael Benoit
came out on whatever show it was; I mean, about concussions, I
asked. And but so there is no documentation as far as I am aware
of. However, we are looking into certain tests that can be done
to look at concussions or pre?concussion syndrome, et cetera. I
think it is called impact testing. So it is something going
forward that we are certainly looking at to make sure we can
ascertain whether or not someone is prone to concussions or ?? I
think you get a baseline level of someone, and then if they do
have a concussion, you can tell ?? I am not sure exactly the
specifics of it, but it is something we are looking into doing as
a proactive implementation.
Q So, if I understand you correctly, since the enactment
of the wellness policy, WWE has documented no concussions?
A As far as I know, as far as I was told ??
Q Yes.
A ?? no.
BY MS. SACHSMAN:
Q And who told you that?
A I was told that by Ed Kaufman, who is our head counsel.
Mr. McDevitt. You should not be disclosing any privileged
communications. I didn’t realize that is where that came from.
And I would instruct you not to answer any further questions about
that.
Mr. Buffone. Do you script ??
119
Mr. McDevitt. Not in any case ?? in any questions you give,
you never disclose communications with counsel, period.
Ms. McMahon. Okay.
Mr. McDevitt. If the question calls for it, ask me, and
before you give an answer. You should never disclose
communications with counsel.
Mr. Buffone. Do you script ??
Ms. Sachsman. Of course, just for the record, the committee
does not recognize attorney?client privilege. So certainly, you
know, you should discuss that with your attorney, and we will
discuss at that point whether we need you to disclose that
information.
BY MR. BUFFONE:
Q Do you script chair shots to the head?
A No. At times, we discuss ?? I should say, to be clear,
the writing team does not script chair shots to the head. We
might script what is called heat, which is when you are getting
extra physicality than just winning a match. It is when you are
really beating someone down in order to elicit a reaction from the
crowd of, “Oh, my God, please get up, get up, get up,” and the guy
can’t. It is a way of continuing a story line to where you really
want to see that bad guy who got the heat on the baby face, you
want to see him get beat. So, in essence, if we wrote in heat, we
might ?? the agents, the producers might then subscribe to a chair
shot or, you know, if there is a particular ?? there are all
120
different props.
Q So the agents may instruct chair shots?
A They might suggest it with the talent. It is really up
to the talent to determine how they want to get the heat, how they
want to convey the message. For example, if there are a number of
guys in the ring, like say there is five guys attacking one guy,
and I am a good guy going to come out, if I come out by myself, I
am going to get beat down just as bad as the other guy. But if I
come out with a chair, I might have a better chance. Logically,
so that is how the chairs are used. You might have seen ?? or I
don’t know if you have seen any of our scripts ?? but there might
be chair shots written in at some point. But they are
suggestions. They are guidelines. It is the producers and the
talent who determine what exactly is used and how.
Q What about pile drivers to unpadded surfaces?
A Those are talent calls only.
Q Okay.
A And talent ?? there is only, as of right now, we only
allow two people to do pile drivers. And they are two of the
stronger guys, superstars who have done these maneuvers for a long
time, really know how to do them safely. They are very rare.
They have to be approved. Pile drivers, chair shots, everything
has to be approved, and it is all approved by Vince.
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