Last Sunday, the WWE presented Summerslam 2005. The pay per view contained eight matches (well, seven) and, for better or worse, was a pivotal moment in several wrestler’s careers. In the days after the event I discussed all things ‘Summerslam’ with fellow columnist Linda Robin (of ‘Linda’s Thoughts’) and we tried to make some sense of it all. For those of you wondering, Linda’s words have gone through my spellchecker so she might appear more British than usual.
Lee says: Firstly I’d like to thank you for doing this, I received some positive feedback after we chatted about the Wrestlemania PPV and the time felt right to dust off the armour and cross swords once more.
Linda says: You’re welcome, it’s good to speak with you again.
Lee says: We might as well start at the top and talk about what happened between Orlando Jordan and Chris Benoit for the US title. I was still pouring my drink when I noticed it was over.
Linda says: The match was fast. It made Benoit’s Crippler crossface look very powerful but on the other hand it was kind of an insult to Jordan. It certainly doesn’t say “hey Jordan, we think you are the future of the WWE”, does it?
Lee says: I agree that this was all about Benoit. But, if the match had been a standard 10-12 minute opening match then most fans would have said that Benoit winning the belt was the important bit and the match, from a PPV perspective, was slightly meaningless. At least this way, we got the good bit without having to suffer for it.
Linda says: Exactly, and I would have been one of those fans that wouldn’t want to sit through it so this was the way to go.
Lee says: And I feel that Jordan’s feudless title run says more about how management couldn’t care enough to give him something to do than the one-minute squash did. Benoit should have been the US champ ages ago, this was more like putting something right that they’d screwed up.
Linda says: When I heard Tazz or Michael Cole say that Jordan had been in possession of the title for five months it seemed wrong because, in that time, he defended it twice, if that?
Lee says: Does Orlando have a future with the WWE? He’s a good wrestler but he doesn’t have much of what Vince seems to look for in a superstar thesedays.
Linda says: I feel he might have potential but we never really got to see him wrestle consistently, so I would say he will go down to the lower/mid-card in the very near future.
Lee says: Even though he’s been carrying the belt for a while, I think the faith that creative have shown in him is akin to that afforded to a lower tier wrestler. So I doubt much will change for him other than a few pounds less excess baggage on flights. Okay, match two was Edge and Matt Hardy. This should be fun. I was hoping to have a better understanding of what they were trying to do with this after Raw but it seems just as unclear as the PPV match. Do you think this is the end for Matt?
Linda says: I have a habit of making quick judgements and, at first, I did feel that Matt was punished for going public with his story on the Internet. Then on Raw, losing to Rob Conway, things didn’t improve but part of me feels that he’s going to get his big win against Edge at Unforgiven. So at Summerslam, yeah, he was made to look weak and unimportant.
Lee says: I think most people felt that this match wasn’t going to end in a conclusive way and the door is open for character development with Matt after the beating he received, but I think it’s safe to say that when Edge gets the push to the next level after this feud it’s unlikely that Hardy will move up with him. So was it a mistake for Hardy to return to WWE?
Linda says: Yes, it was a MAJOR mistake. I agree that after this feud, Edge will continue his big push and Matt will be the mid-carder that he was before he was fired in the spring.
Lee says: Seeing as Hardy’s been at this point before he must have known that he would go back to being the small fish in the big pond. In TNA, he would have been the new star and the talk of the promotion. I can’t believe that the promise of a feud with Edge and Lita was sufficient to draw him back to WWE on its own.
Linda says: But who knows what Vince verbally promised him? Remember one thing, you don’t cross the boss and I believe Vince is proving that with Matt right now.
Lee says: I believe that part of this match was a test to make sure Matt understands who signs the cheques but, just because he talked big on his website, I don’t see much change in him from the team player he was when the Hardy boys started in WWE. Was it necessary to squash him like this?
Linda says: It wasn’t necessary to squash him in that way and Edge doesn’t need this kind of put-over at all. I feel the fans lost out on what could have been a really good match.
Lee says: Do you think they were capable of the violent brawl this match was supposed to be? With the ladder match and the ‘no holds barred’ contest still to come on the night, would it have seemed a little light for a grudge match?
Linda says: I think they were capable of giving us a lot of brutality. Those punches that were going back and forth were very strong and the kick to Matt’s head from Edge? Even I felt that! There was so much more that could have happened.
Lee says: For me, even if this is booked to go somewhere and mean something, then the sacrifice was too much and the disadvantages of not having the match outweigh the benefit to the storyline. Now, what about Eddie and Rey? A good ladder match technically in comparison to previous ladder matches?
Linda says: My match of the night. No, not a flawless ladder match and probably not THE best, but in my books it was great. Eddie and Rey worked a hard match, took lots of chances and it was just an awesome performance from both guys.
Lee says: I must admit, I’ve not seen that much recklessness in ladder matches before (well, maybe from RVD but that’s a different problem). Do you think the storyline helped or hindered the PPV match?
Linda says: Whilst the storyline throughout the months became too much of a focus on Smackdown, in the end it worked out just fine. It all tied together very well.
Lee says: True. At times, the segments on Smackdown were overdone and they made it difficult to feel that it was all worthwhile but the reaction from the crowd was definitely inspired by the storyline and it’s hard to argue with a positive response like that. You think we’ve seen the last of the Dominick storyline now?
Linda says: Yeah, I think it’s over and I have to say that little Dominick is a better actor than some of the WWE wrestlers. This kid was so natural that he didn’t overdo a thing. I was very impressed by him. It certainly had me pulling for Rey during the match.
Lee says: Out of Eddie and Rey, who do you think has benefited most from this feud? And who do you feel will go on from it with the better momentum?
Linda says: Tough one. Eddie’s acting was outstanding but Rey came through too and worked more in the ring. I think Eddie might move up but Rey I believe will also get a decent push as a result.
Lee says: You think Eddie will be in line for a crack at Benoit and the US title?
Linda says: I’m thinking Eddie v Batista in the near future. What do you think?
Lee says: I’d still say that Orton is the next best challenger seeing as we know he carries Batista better than anyone and they’ve already got history. I’d like to think that Rey will move up but I’m tempted to want Rey to interact with the Mexicools. Rey and Juventud Guerrera is a match I’d definitely be interested in.
Linda says: I could see Rey going against Juventud and the Mexicools.
Lee says: Speaking of Orton, you think this victory for Orton was the reciprocal put-over for Orton’s job at Wrestlemania for Taker?
Linda says: Oh definitely, but the match lacked something for me. Had this match happened at the following Smackdown PPV then Randy’s win would have been more exciting to me, but too much time went by.
Lee says: Shoulder surgery does tend to kill a feud. I enjoyed the match, mainly through seeing that Orton’s lost none of his dynamic style, but it takes two to tango and the Undertaker showed that he’s still got enough left to make PPV appearances.
Linda says: Randy had no ring rust at all, I just felt the match was slow.
Lee says: Slow compared to how Taker normally is or compared to someone like Benjamin or Angle, whom we know move fast? Surely it’s in matches like these that Orton is supposed to be the bouncing ball for someone like Taker? And whenever Taker gets the upper hand the offence will slow down. Or am I just trying to start an argument? Anyway, what next for Taker? More time off?
Linda says: Slow compared to Benjamin, Angle, HBK, Jericho and so on. Right, when Undertaker gets the offence things fall to a slow pace. It was a good match, just not fast-paced enough for me. As for more time off? I don’t know. I think he would want a rematch with Randy but I’m sure he will be on/off like he has been for the past year.
Lee says: I assume that, if he ever gets near the title again, he would have to devote more time to tv and house shows. You think he’s got that left in him or he’s resigned to this ‘feud off tv/appear at PPV’ idea?
Linda says: I would like to think that Undertaker could have one more title reign. I feel he deserves it. But then yes, he would have to be on weekly and do house shows on a regular basis and I’m not sure physically he can do all that anymore.
Lee says: I wouldn’t be against a final title reign for Undertaker, as long as it wasn’t presented as a nostalgic ‘last ride around the block’ and contained some decent angles that benefited both champion and challenger. You think Vince would make allowances for his age and condition, based on the fact that older stars are returning at an alarming rate at the moment and what better veteran to use in that way than one that is as over as he is and already in the WWE?
Linda says: Definitely, Vince would make concessions and he should. Taker has been a loyal WWE worker so I say, unlike other veterans, he deserves to have concessions made in his favour.
Lee says: Agreed. Moving on, do you think the Angle/Eugene match was really just a commercial for Kurt in his promotion to the number one contendership?
Linda says: It was a commercial for Kurt and the funeral of the character Eugene. Thankfully it was short so I had no problem with it.
Lee says: So you’re happy with Eugene going? And Kurt now feuding with Cena for the title?
Linda says: I’m very happy with Kurt and Cena because Kurt will bring a lot to that feud. Happy about Eugene’s demise? No, I like Eugene in a way and I feel bad that he’s been getting so much heat from the fans.
Lee says: I’ve said this before but I find it odd that very few seem willing to support Eugene and yet Hogan is as soft and cheesy as he is, but more fans are willing to accept Hogan’s comeback as relevant. You think Eugene will be completely repackaged or turned?
Linda says: I agree with what you said about Hogan and I don’t know if a Eugene heel turn would be that entertaining. I say that maybe he will be on sporadically and Vince will see if the fans are more behind him. If not, yeah, some kind of change will take place.
Lee says: He does have similar characteristics to children and they can be pretty vicious and spiteful so it wouldn’t be hard to turn him heel I think. Anyway, you think Kurt will win the title first up against Cena so John can be the underdog challenger again? And if so, can I quote you on this when the PPV predictions come around?
Linda says: Good point about a turn as a vicious child. No, Kurt isn’t beating Cena. He should, but he won’t.
Lee says: You sound certain.
Linda says: Quote me that, Cena is winning his match with Angle. When am I ever wrong?
Lee says: Frequently, but then the world loves confidence. I think Kurt will get the title from Cena. I think John’s been losing some heat based solely around the idea that he’s a struggler, but he’s not struggling anymore.
Linda says: Notice too how the mic work has become less and less. I think he’s lost a lot of heat but I feel Vince still thinks this guy is Mr. mainstream media so he’s not going to have him lose yet.
Lee says: Let’s just say, if he says “real recognising real” again, I’m going to stick my real fingers down my real throat and recognise my lunch. You want Kurt to continue the psycho gimmick?
Linda says: lol, I agree, I can’t stand it either. I cannot take Cena’s character, he needs to get his edge back and until he does you can count me out of the chain gang. And yes, Kurt can continue being a psycho. I like that a lot.
Lee says: I’ve noticed in the past that you prefer dorky Kurt (see, I do read your columns), you think THAT Kurt would work against Cena?
Linda says: I prefer to call him a nerd but yes, I do like dorky Kurt. But if he was that character against Cena, then John would be doing his cute routine and that would really get to me. No I like Kurt the way he is right now, he’s all about WINNING.
Lee says: So Cena will become more serious in opposition to psycho Kurt?
Linda says: Well I would like to think that, but then again who knows because Cena wants to be the fun loving champ.
Lee says: Well, ‘fun loving’ Cena begins with a C and ends in a P but the word isn’t ‘champ’. Speaking of Cena, did you like his match with Jericho?
Linda says: I loved their Summerslam match and I give Jericho all the credit for that one, he was magnificent.
Lee says: It’s a shame that Jericho puts in his best performance for ages in his last match for a while. You think he was trying to show Vince what the WWE will be missing? Point being, if Jericho sticking a finger up at management is the only thing that motivates him to a quality performance then maybe he’s the one with the motivational problems?
Linda says: I never thought of that, you might have something there. OR maybe he did it because he really wanted to help Cena and make him look like a good wrestler and a worthy champion?
Lee says: Are you suggesting a selfless act by a WWE wrestler? Shame on you.
Linda says: Yes I am, because it’s Y2J. He’s a total professional, and my second favourite wrestler.
Lee says: Who’s your favourite? Actually, I think I can guess.
Linda says: Very funny. Kiss Candice Michelle with that mouth? Didn’t think so.
Lee says: Point taken. It looks like Jericho will take quite a bit of time off now.
Linda says: The challenge is gone because he was treated like a mid-carder for how many years there? I think they could have given him another title reign. In the ring Jericho is a good worker, it’s just the writing has been so bad for him.
Lee says: He’s a fine wrestler but I never really saw him as world title material. I feel he was locked into a cycle of neglect and lethargy and those two tend to add up over the years. His lack of motivation is as much to blame for his position as incompetent writing. I’ll miss Jericho for his potential, but I won’t miss how he’s been used in recent years. Okay, Batista v JBL. Was the gimmick enough to make it a good match?
Linda says: No, I was disappointed with it. When you hear it’s a ‘no holds barred’ match then you expect brutality (some lady I am), weapons and a lot of action and for me this lacked all of that. I’m glad it was kept short.
Lee says: It definitely did lack some bite. The ‘no holds barred’ element only came into effect to excuse a few spots, not to shape the contest as a whole. It was a disappointment. You said before that Eddie would be a good opponent next for Batista. Does Batista have any secrets Eddie could expose or will the wrestling be enough to sell the feud?
Linda says: I think that with Eddie’s wrestling skills and his charisma, he could make this a good series and I would love to see it.
Lee says: But Batista would still keep the belt throughout the feud I assume? Not sure Eddie’s ready for another reign as champ yet.
Linda says: Batista would keep the belt. I believe Eddie could do for Batista what Jericho did for Cena and make him look like a better champion.
Lee says: Did you like the Batista-bomb onto the steps at the end of the match? It was nice but JBL’s such a big guy that it doesn’t carry the same effect as say, when Eddie suplexed Rey onto the steps a while back.
Linda says: Yeah, that I liked very much. Even though JBL is big, he went down very hard.
Lee says: You’ve got to hand it to JBL, he may be a bully and an asshole (allegedly) but there’s not much he wouldn’t do for the WWE when asked.
Linda says: Exactly, and for the PPV’s he works hard, I will give him that.
Lee says: And so on to our main event dream match. At least, a dream for Hogan but probably a nightmare for HBK?
Linda says: I feel bad for Michaels. Like Jericho, Shawn owned this match and I can’t say enough good things about how he performed. Hogan took more bumps than I thought he would. The only thing that I didn’t appreciate was that he kicked out after being hit by ‘sweet chin music’. Only Hogan could do that.
Lee says: I think even the most optimistic of observers knew that Hogan would make sure the ‘hulking up after his opponents finishing move’ spot would be in there somewhere.
Linda says: Hogan has been on many Raw shows recently and I want him gone now, I’ve had my fill of Hulk for a while.
Lee says: Seeing as Vince has more stroke than anyone in the WWE, you think it was right for Vince to let Hogan piss all over HBK in this way. Surely two legends deserve equal respect.
Linda says: No I don’t like the way Michaels was treated throughout this feud. The more I read the rumours that Vince allowed this to happen, the more I’m wondering why do that to HBK?
Lee says: By the sounds of it, Vince ringing the bell on Hogan would have been more popular than doing it to Bret.
Linda says: Right, but I really didn’t see that happening. I couldn’t see Vince doing that to Hogan. I would have, but not Vince.
Lee says: Good god, you’re more evil than Vince! So you think Hogan has his sights set on a Wrestlemania match now? I wouldn’t put it past him asking for a title shot.
Linda says: I hope that this rumour about Hogan v Cena at Wrestlemania is just that, a rumour. I really feel we got enough of Hogan this time around.
Lee says: I think this needs mentioning. Some fan reaction to Summerslam has been quite negative but you, like me, seemed to enjoy it. Can you understand why some fans weren’t as enthusiastic about it?
Linda says: I only received two negative emails about Summerslam. For the most part with the feedback I got, it was a HIT. I think the ones that didn’t like it missed Hunter not being on there (that was a joke).
Lee says: I feel that, individually, six out of the eight matches had issues about them that you could look at negatively but the overall show had a good vibe to it and came across as a very watchable PPV. On the subject of HHH, I was going to ask if you felt it was a good move to give him this time off or did Summerslam really need him to be there?
Linda says: No, Summerslam came off fine without him. Even though I feel he’s taken too much time off, he needs to comeback refreshed and hopefully that’s happening. His promos had been stale for months, but I still miss him.
Lee says: Finally, I think many fans would agree that the writing has been bad on the tv shows of late. Do you see this improving now that storylines like Jericho/Cena and especially Rey/Eddie have gone, and the WWE should concentrate on action rather than drama?
Linda says: I would like to think that’s just what is going to happen. Raw was very good this past week and I saw Smackdown tonight and that too had a different feeling to it. It was GOOD for a change. I would like to think that post-Summerslam means better feuds and a lot better storylines.
Lee says: And a lot less Hogan?
Linda says: I really hope so. I’ve never been a fan of his but after this last run and then watching his reality show, he’s not exactly a loveable kind of guy.
Lee says: I’ll be sure to ask HBK for a second opinion on that one. Okay, I think that ought to do it. It’s been a pleasure talking to you again Linda and I look forward to maybe doing this again after next year’s Wrestlemania PPV?
Linda says: Well, I’m a busy woman. Can I get back to you nearer the time on that one?
Lee says: I understand. I’ll just sit here for seven months and await your decision.
Linda says: There you go. Thanks Lee.
Lee says: (Women!). Yeah, cheers Linda.
